Artificial Intelligence or AI has been taking over varied industries and has become undeniably helpful in today’s fast-paced life. Today, John Livesay interviews James Taylor, founder of C.SCHOOL™ and host of The Creative Life Podcast and TV Show. James talks about creativity and innovation and the use of AI in different professions. He then shares with us his proven five-step creative process that includes preparation, incubation, insights, evaluation, and finally, elaboration. Be inspired by James’ creative mind as he discusses each step and how important it is to do it in the right order.
Listen To The Episode Here:
Creativity In An Age Of Artificial Intelligence With James Taylor
Our guest is James Taylor, who not only has his MBA, but he is a Fellow Royal Society of the Arts, FRSA. He’s an award-winning speaker and internationally recognized leader in creativity and innovation. For over many years, he’s been teaching entrepreneurs, educators and corporate leaders, writers and literally rock stars, how to build innovative organizations and design the creative life they desire. As the Founder of C.SCHOOL and the host of The Creative Life Podcast and TV show, he’s taught hundreds of thousands of individuals and over 120 countries through his online courses, books, videos and keynotes.
After advising some of the world’s most creative individuals and companies ranging from Grammy-award winning music artists and best-selling authors to Silicon Valley startups, James designed a framework for creativity that helps individuals and organizations achieve exponential growth. Some of his clients have included Apple, Sony, Johnson & Johnson. He’s an in-demand creativity expert. He’s been on hundreds of media outlets. He was a subject of a 30-minute BBC documentary about his life and work. James, welcome to the show.
It’s my pleasure. I always love spending time with you.Green colors activate idea flow. Click To Tweet
You were always in a different country. I love your passion for sharing all of your insights into what it takes to become a great keynote speaker. I always like to ask my guests what’s your own little story of origin. Your mission is to inspire creative minds. You must have always had one yourself.
I believe we’re all born with unlimited creativity. The problem is as you go through schooling, education and you start work, it gets knocked you a little bit. I see my job is just reigniting that creativity that’s in all of us. Whether that’s the creativity to sell better, to create new products, to change the world, to run companies or countries better. I’m definitely there to re-ignite something I believe was already in you anyway. You need a little bit of help.
Tell us your own story of origin. We talked before that you sold guitars but didn’t play them.
I come from a musical family. My father is a very esteemed music jazz artist. My grandfather was a musician as well. My wife is a professional jazz singer, so I come from the music industry people. My very first Saturday job was working in a music store selling guitars. I don’t play guitar. It taught me the first lesson about selling, which is understanding the customer. It wasn’t about me. It was understanding not so much the technical things a customer wanted, but what did they want that thing to do for them? What transformation do they want?
I was very good at selling very high-end guitars. A lot of the time, it was to the market. They’d have a big 40th or 50th birthday with a zero on the end. I was able to help them reconnect with that thing that they had when maybe they were college and helped use that to sell them a $5,000 guitar. That told me as a fourteen-year-old about the power of selling. I remember reading books by Robert Cialdini and all these wonderful sales experts and that got me initially interested in sales and selling. From there, I moved into the world of managing music artists professionally. I manage a number of Grammy-Award-winning artists.
I’ve managed a band called Deacon Blue, which sold about six million albums. I managed the Rolling Stones. That helped me start to understand how the music industry works about building big global brands, scale, that people can feel passionate and they can feel connected when you can build a tribe and excitement around. In 2010, I received a call from a gentleman in California and he asked if I would move to California to help him grow a technology company. It’s a totally different game. That was the initial start of things.Breaking down silos is the key to growth. Click To Tweet
What do you see if anything in common between a startup and a musician that’s at a level of winning Grammys?
They’re very good knowing what they do well from that. They’re very good at connecting ideas with people. It always intrigued me spending time with these phenomenal Grammy-Award music artists. They could flip between this quite quiet person sitting there, coming up with ideas, thinking creatively, and then suddenly they would go on stage, it was the same person, but it was like them multiplied by ten. I was always interested in this. My living as a professional keynote speaker, companies bring me in to speak on big stages all around the world. I’ve spoken in 25 countries. I noticed that even looking at the creativity of those, there are a lot of similarities between people like top rock stars and the stuff that I do as a speaker and also when I see great CEOs.
I was speaking at an event in Amsterdam and there was a vice president there. He came up on stage. He is one of the most inspiring speakers I’ve ever seen because he looked around the audience. He could sense this audience was from a group within this company. They were primarily all MBAs, smart people all in their early 30s, mid-30s. He didn’t speak to them about climbing up the corporate ladder, stuff that you might have spoken to maybe someone that was a little bit older, a different generation. He spoke to them about how this company and growing this company could be a vehicle for helping all those people in the room achieve their own personal development, their own genes, their own freedom as well. I thought, “To be able to make that room feel like that, that is phenomenal.” I see that in great leaders. It doesn’t matter whether they are rock stars on stage or great professional speakers or whether that CEO up on stage is inspiring their team.
Speaking of your career, your most popular topic is super creativity, augmenting human creativity in the age of artificial intelligence. First of all, I want to applaud you for putting those two things together because a lot of people think innovation is all about technology and certainly artificial intelligence technology and creativity is a human thing like you’re going to write a song, paint or write. You’ve been able to combine the two. I don’t see anyone else doing this. Talk to us about how you said, “I think there’s something here that artificial intelligence can help us become super creative.”
We all see the stories about artificial intelligence. It’s going to take away everyone’s job. It’s going to be the terminator. Our robots will start taking over the world. That side doesn’t interest me so much. What I’m more interested is about how it changes the future work, what potential it can offer us as humans to augment ourselves. We often meet these terms, creativity and innovation. The way I think about it is there are different sides of the same coin. Creativity is about bringing new ideas to the mind. Innovation is about bringing new ideas to the world. Without creativity, there is no innovation. There are no new products and services. Creativity is the engine of innovation. It starts from there.
If you want to create that next winning company that makes a winning project or product service, it comes from that creativity of you as an individual, but more broadly within the team, the team that you’re working where you assemble to do something together. Where I’m interested in is where I see examples from lots of different industries is you’re going to get lots of jobs disappearing. That’s going to happen. You’re already starting to see that start to take hold.
I’m more interested in the people who are in the world of work. How they can start to use some of these technologies like AI and machine learning robotics to augment them, to allow them to do things that in their work, their skillset, their job that they might have thought unimaginable before. The companies I’ve been speaking for, they’ll range from some of the world’s top law firms, accounting firms, sovereign wealth funds, some of the largest financial and banking firms in the world, consumer products, companies, educators, fast food companies, aerospace, all different industries. Within all those industries, you see this happen more and more. Even to explain it from a very simple perspective of myself, my job is to be a keynote speaker.
Companies bring me in or associations bring me on to get on stage. I’m normally, like yourself, either the opening keynote speaker or the closing keynote speaker of a big conference. That’s not often the way. I think about how I use artificial intelligence to augment me in what I do. A few years ago, the way that most speakers had a conversation with the client was they would do pre-event call and they would say, “Tell me who’s going to be in your audience.” They say, “We have people that are aged 40 to 50. They’re senior managers. They’re 80% men, 20% women, and they would do that.” That’s just the demographics. That’s not that interesting.
I’m more interested in the psychometrics of that room. We can use artificial intelligence. The way that I use it is before I even go in the room as part of my work on understanding the audience in the room, I will use AI to analyze the audience. I will essentially use different ways of doing this. You can use the same technology. If you’re selling and you’re going out and giving a pitch, analyze that key decision-maker in the room. It’s almost exactly the same process. This is how it works. I use IBM Watson, which is one of the many wonderful artificial intelligence systems or programs out there.
All I have to do, if I’m speaking to a large conference, most conferences will have a Twitter handle. I’ll go and give it to the artificial intelligence. What it will do is it will spider all of the accounts where the people are following and tweeting about this conference, for example. It will then give me across 72 different factors, a visual representation of the psychometrics of that particular audience, those people that are going to be attending. It tells me what their needs are, what their values are, what their wants are.
What I can do is I can give the AI my draft keynote presentation and it essentially analyzes that and it can overlay the psychometrics of my presentation with the psychometrics of the audience in the room. It could tell me what I need to work on, what needs to be boosted up, what needs to become down. The way we use this, let’s say, I was giving a pitch to a CEO in New York. The CEO, like many senior executives, didn’t do social media or if they did do social media, someone else is writing it for them. It wasn’t them who’s writing it. What they had done is they’d written an article for one of their trade magazines. All I had to do was I gave the AI 1,000 words that this person had written.
I could use 1,000 words that someone’s spoken. If they’ve done an interview or written, give it to the AI. It automatically told me the psychometrics of that person in the room, that key decision-maker I wanted to influence. I knew having looked at that that this person is authority challenging. As I give my pitch, I want to come across a bit more like a contrarian in my views. I could see that they valued practicality very highly. As I give my pitch, I’m going to say, “Here’s how my service product can be practically applied to help grow your business.” I could also see they valued trust highly, 99% super high.Caffeine reduces your creativity. Click To Tweet
You might call them case studies. You would call them case stories, which I love. You would tell case stories. You would tell examples because this is going to use more social proof. Robert Cialdini, that trust indicators, social proof and that will help that person feel that the key decision-maker in the room when you’re giving your pitch is going to feel like magic. It’s going to feel like, “This person understands me. He understands this challenge or this issue I’m thinking about, what I’m thinking about in the challenges I’m having in our business.” It’s not magic. It’s data.
You’re speaking their language. If somebody cares about trust being a key factor and that is going to be specific to their personality, whether they want to have proof of your authority or whatever it is. You’re addressing all those issues in advance. Is this something that you have to subscribe to IBM Watson to be able to access and create this analysis from Twitter handle?
If you go into my LinkedIn profile, James Taylor. I have a post there, an article which basically states exactly how it works and how to do it. This is something that you can subscribe to. There is a free version. You can go and test it if you want to go and try out. You can give some written words written by a key decision-maker or somebody who wants to influence. It’s fun. Do it on yourself first of all. If you take this onto the next stage, let’s say if I work in a car showroom, where are we going next with this is if I can take that data. Let’s say I’ve got all of my customers’ social media handles. I’ve had a series of correspondence with them so that is in the system. That will then create the psychometrics for everyone in my customer database, my CRM.
You can start to do very interesting things. Let’s imagine you can have the new Apple glasses that are going to be coming out. Unlike the Google glasses, but much nicer, much cooler. They will be connected to different artificial intelligence. You can connect that to your CRM and you can wear these glasses. Let’s imagine I’m a fourteen-year-old guy in a music store selling guitars. Five people come into the store. I’m wearing my glasses. It’s connected to the CRM of the company, so I know the psychometrics.
Using facial recognition as they come into the room, I can automatically see, “That customer is coming in here. They have a high FICO score. They have a low credit rating. This customer here is being on this webpage a number of times and spending a lot of time on that page about this product. This customer here has spent $10,000 within the past several years.” As a salesperson, who do you go and speak to? It’s all showing a heads up display like a fighter pilot would have. This is happening and I worked with a lot of companies that are starting to build these out across their businesses.
This is the super creativity bit because the AI is not going to write your pitch for you. It’s not going to give you a sales presentation, but it will make you a better presenter of your ideas. Sports teams use AI to analyze their players. Insurance companies use AIs to analyze their brokers. I believe every salesperson should be able to use a tool like this in order to analyze that prospective client, that prospect that they’re going for. When you go and give that pitch, it is absolutely landing on a very emotional level with that person as well. That’s the human bit. The creativity comes from us being able to create story arcs and be great storytellers. They all have side things that you’re brilliant at doing. We augment that with these technologies, which helped provide more data on the analytical side.Without creativity, there is no innovation Click To Tweet
You use the AI to give you insights into the data that’s going to emotionally resonate with somebody and turn that data into a story. Would that be a good summary? You said something that I want to capture because I’d love to tweet out. It’s something about artificial intelligence is our mind and creative is the world. Do you remember what you said there?
Creativity is bringing new ideas to the mind. Innovation is bringing new ideas to the world. Without creativity, there is no innovation. Creativity is the engine of innovation. That’s how the two things exist. They cannot sit side by side. Usually what you tend to find is creativity exists more around individuals and teams working together to generate ideas, assumptions, tests, minimal byproducts, those things. Innovation tends to come around to what we call the five-stage of the creative process towards the end. It ends up as being slightly more process-driven, but they go well hand in hand together.
You teased us about the five steps to a creative process. I know that’s core part of your keynote on this topic, but you’ve been gracious enough to give us a little snapshot of what those five steps are.
The creative process is about how you generate, develop and execute on ideas. Let’s say you have a product and you want to start generating new ideas to get that product to market, or you’re looking to go fundraise. We need to get creative here on the pitch that we’re going to be putting out there into the market or the types of investors that we want to be bringing this deal to. The first stage of the creative process is what we call the preparation stage. This is about generating ideas. It’s about taking and absorbing as much information as possible.
It’s where you’re doing your classic market research. That’s the very first stage. The second stage where a lot of people I see go wrong is they do their research and immediately hope to stop generating ideas. The second stage, which is called the incubation stage, is where you need to put ideas to the back of your mind. It’s almost like forget about it. Go and do something else, switch to another project. You’ll bring and continue working on things in the background. I was going to be looking for patterns, looking for opportunities all the time, but you have to put it to the back of your mind.
One of the fascinating things is even, for example, the colors that you have around you can affect your levels of creativity. There was a study done by a University of British Columbia up in Canada. They found that the color red is the best color to have around you when you do work, which requires high attention to detail. For example, if you’re doing your tax returns, you want to have that color red around you. What they found is the best color to have around you if you’re looking to generate ideas is the color green. One of the reasons we get some of our best ideas when we’re out walking in nature when that color green is all around you. Think about for yourself, do you have that color green around you in your workspace? Are you going out for a walk and talk to me? Are you going to the parks? Places where that color green is activating that part of the brain. You’re basically incubating all of this and this is the stage you’re mulling it over in the back of your mind.
I want to give everybody a little story on that because you and I were having a conversation. I said, “I want to show you something to plant the seed in your brain, knowing the way you work.” I didn’t call it incubating, but that’s basically what I was talking about. It’s like let me show you something and I’ll know that will be in your subconscious and that might generate some ideas.
In the US military, at West Point, they teach a version of this. They call it preloading, which is about two hours before you go to sleep at night, ask yourself a question about that challenge that you’re trying to come up with. You sleep on it. You print it at the back of the mind and often when you wake up the next morning, the idea is almost fully formed sometimes. It’s strange.I’ve heard about this. Why is it that I’m a successful X, Y and Z? Fill in the blank.
The brain is a phenomenal, amazing thing. We go to this third stage, which is the insight stage. That’s the a-ha moment, the light bulb moment, however, you want to describe it. When it comes to creativity, it’s the shortest part of the creative process. It’s the bit they make the movies about, when you see the fast action scenes, a big light bulb seems going on. Most creative work is not necessary like that in terms of those moments. There are a couple of things you can do to increase those levels of creativity. One is to understand yourself when you are at your creative peak each day. John, for example, for you, when ideas come easiest to you or you feel that natural idea-generating flow, what time of day does that tend to happen?
First, in the morning, I let myself be open before I even get out of bed or even open my eyes and say, “What am I grateful for? What am I open to receiving? What’s my intention for the day? Are there any insights?” I literally asked myself that question. Are there any insights that I’m open to hearing? It’s amazing. Sometimes it starts and unless you said a few minutes later, I’ll be in the shower. That’s what that joke is about, why do I get all my best ideas in the shower when I can’t write it down? Before all the world comes in and starts with the emails and we’re reacting to everything or the news or whatever it is that distracts us. I’m a big believer of what you’re talking about here, James, which is letting yourself have some time, a little gap of what wants to come up. What is my intuition telling me? What do I want to say or do? Even preparing for this. I started thinking about you and our previous conversations and all the wonderful videos that I watched you do. I’m like, “What would be a great question that would help James get his message across and see what would come up during the conversation. I plant that seed.
You’ve described beautifully from a very poetic standpoint that sensation of what you feel in the morning. We use that time in the morning, that half-awake, half-asleep that other people might be late in the evening or the afternoons after lunch. I’ll describe what’s going on from a chemistry perspective. What’s going on is you’ve been incubating this awesome thing overnight. You might be thinking about it. You’ve been incubating it overnight. In the morning, what’s happening in your brain is fuzzy. You’re open to unconventional thoughts. Alpha waves are rippling through your brain directing your attention inwards to remote associations emanating from the right hemisphere. Also, the brain that says, “That’s a stupid idea,” that hasn’t woken up yet.
This is one of the reasons many people get their best ideas and that half-awake, half-asleep in the morning. Don’t just jump out bed but give yourself that time to say you’ve been intentional asking those questions, or in the shower in the morning, a lot of people get their best ideas. This is the reason, but the main thing is not everyone’s morning people. Other people get a later in the evenings or the afternoons but know for yourself what time of day you are at your creative peak. As much as possible, use that time to do your deep thinking, your creative thinking, your strategic thinking, move all your calls, emails, meetings outside of that time.In terms of creativity, there’s a lot of similarities between top rock stars, speakers, and great CEOs. Click To Tweet
We start to generate these insights. It’s funny because even what we eat and drink can affect our levels of creativity. There was a great study done by Martha Farah, who’s a neuroscience professor at the University of Pennsylvania. She found that high levels of caffeine in your diet will reduce your chances of having ideas and insights. I was speaking in Bogota, Colombia and I told this story. I thought 2,000 people in the audience were going to kill me at this stage. Let me give you a little bit of background on that. Caffeine or coffee is very good for the preparation stage, the first stage of the creative process and the last stage because what we’re doing is, we’re looking to absorb what’s the new information. It’s a different thing. When you’re looking to be expansive in your thinking, it would benefit you to dial down your caffeine levels. Switch to tea, water, juices because caffeine is very good at focused work, but not so good for unfocused, open-minded thinking.
That explains it.
There’s stage for generating ideas. We go to this fourth stage of the evaluation stage. I’ve worked with some incredibly creative companies, creative individuals, especially senior advertising industry or some of the high-tech industries. Usually, the biggest challenge is not a lack of ideas. The biggest challenge is around evaluating those ideas and deciding which ones we’re going to pursue and test. That’s the evaluation stage. This is when you start to do things like more ideation, brainstorming sessions. I teach a whole different series of tools. They have to do that well. Also, to break down silos in organizations which is a challenge.
That’s the number one problem I see across every industry I’ve ever spoken, too. Everything is so siloed, no one’s communicating. There’s no database where they could share, the case stories of what’s work at other cities or countries. If you could help people breakdown their silos, then no wonder you’re speaking so often.
It’s also happening on different levels. You’ll see from a generational standpoint where Millennials are communicating in one way sometimes. The Boomers or Gen X are doing it in a slightly different way. Sometimes getting everyone in that same place. I speak a lot in the Middle East and South America where you have a different hierarchy in organizations than you would have in Silicon Valley or in London where it tends to be much more top-down or family businesses. The large family business could be like this as well. I also teach a number of tools there, which is about leveling out the hierarchy a bit so you get the best ideas from everyone in the organization. Not from a senior person that are always dominating the board with their ideas, which is very important. In the final stage is the elaboration, which is like Thomas Edison said, “Success is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.” This is the stage that you’re testing your minimum viable products, getting feedback and all these stages, they’re iterative. They go back and forth on this circular. You generate a whole bunch of questions, which then you have to go back to the preparation stage and find out the answers. That’s thinking of the five stages of the creative process.
Thank you for sharing that. To sum up, preparation, incubation, don’t jump right to ideas, insights, evaluation and finally, elaboration. That’s such a great framework for so many different things. We have a mutual friend who is a CMO at Domino’s Pizza. They’re using artificial intelligence to start predicting if you keep ordering the same pizza at the same day and time, the artificial intelligence can start predicting and start the order even before you’ve finished ordering again to help save the time and the delivery. I would love to know a couple of other stories how are lawyers using artificial intelligence?Creativity is the engine of innovation. Click To Tweet
There’s an event I was doing for one of the top ten law firms in the world and the particular challenge that they were looking at was the customer journey. That stage from someone first having contact with that prospective client all the way to a client for many years. How do you get them to refer other business to you to talk about that relationship? This tends to be a long and sometimes complex stage if we choose a couple of different areas that you’re seeing artificial intelligence being used a lot in taking away a lot of the more routine works. For example, there’s a law firm in California called Robot Robot and Hwang. It got started by a young gentleman called Robert Hwang. He trained as a computer scientist. He went and trained as a lawyer and started working for big law firms. He realized how mind-numbingly boring a lot of legal work is, especially the contract side. He would do his law work during the day, and at night, he would go home and he programmed an AI to do the work that he’d been doing during the day. By the end of the first year, he’d essentially replaced himself.
He went and started this new firm called Robot Robot and Hwang. There are three partners in this firm. He is the only human partner. The other two partners are AI. One AI specializes in mergers and acquisitions. The other specializes in intellectual property litigation. This is a very productive, highly profitable type of law firm and very fast-moving. If you have a law firm that you give your business to, asking the question, where are you using AI in your business? If they’re not using an AI, especially to analyze agreements, you might want to be a little bit worried about that because you’re going to start seeing this more and more. It’s a way of reducing risk in the markets. That’s one way. In a completely different way, more from the front end.
I know a lot of your readers come from more sales perspective and you have things that we call conversational AI. I remember when I was getting started in my career and I was getting inquired for some of my music artists and we’d get ten inquiries a day for them to go and do shows somewhere. I could never quite work. I had to do telephone calls for all these ten people. Some of them had a very little budget, some had a good budget. Some of them it wasn’t right. It wasn’t a good fit. What we can use is a conversational AI to essentially help do the filtering process.
The way that this works, let’s say if you have a website, you have a service or product you provide and you have some online form. Normally what happens is people type in the form. “I’m interested in learning more about this product.” That goes directly to a salesperson. That salesperson picks up a phone and calls you, but it’s much better if you put that through an AI first. What would happen is you give the AI a name. If her name is Barbara and Barbara is your new sales assistant. When Barbara gets the email in, Barbara starts having an email conversation with that prospect. What she’s looking for is an intent, certain keyword phrases that she’s learned over the time that those things put together. Also based upon your email address, which you can tag that to your LinkedIn profile, that shows that your company is perfect for your size. The AI will then say, “Let me schedule a call time with one of our sales team, how is Monday at 2:00 PM or Thursday at 3:00 PM?”
It’s going to feel like a normal human conversation and that AI has access to your calendar so they can put that straight in that sales person’s calendar. For those people that aren’t a good fit, AI can then recommend, “Here are some other resources, some other training, some other things. You might want to have a look at our blog post, or I’ll put you on our newsletter list,” or whatever the thing is. A salesperson doesn’t want to be doing a call with someone in the wrong stage of the sales process where they are very unlikely to buy.
If you could help salespeople save time on qualification, then they’re going to be so much more productive and the revenues are going to come in because we are not wasting time on people who don’t plan on buying anytime soon or don’t have the money or whatever the problems are. I want to end this by asking you about why China’s richest man believes that creativity is the most important skill that any one of us are going to need to thrive in this age of disruption.
That’s Jack Ma. He’s the Founder of Alibaba. Alibaba did $36 billion in sales in one day. This is massive. You’re having Black Friday or an Amazon sales, that makes that look like small numbers. Jack was very influential in his company in artificial intelligence. He was asked a question, “What skills should we be investing in our young people, in our teams, people at work in our companies, and our citizens and countries?” He said, “Don’t bother trying to compete with a machine on things it could do better, faster and cheaper. You need to focus on that one advantage that you have as a human, your creativity, your curiosity, your ability to innovate. That’s what you need to be focusing on.” That ties in perfectly to some of the things that I’m interested in about this connection between human and machine.
The number one question I get after having spoken at conferences and people come up to me at the end or people ask me on stages like, “I’ve got a son or a daughter and they’re eight years old. What should I be suggesting? What should I be telling them to do in order for them to get prepared for the future?” I say, “Give them exposure to as many different ideas, cultures as possible. Get them as being curious, being creative.” When I say creative, I don’t mean like liberal arts and music. I’m talking about creating a big science perspective as well. That thing that they had when they were very firstborn with of being curious asking why. Don’t let that go away. Your job as a parent is to keep that going in them. When they become an adult, they have that sense of curiosity in their lives and that’s going to set them in a great place.
The Japanese did that in Toyota seven different times. If anybody wants to get more of you besides hiring you as a keynote speaker, you also have products on creativity training. If anyone is interested in music training or speaker training. I’ve been wanting to recommend your speaker training. It’s so in-depth, specific and unique. People can find you at JamesTaylor.me?
That’s it. They can find all those things from there and feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. I use LinkedIn a lot. That’s exactly how the AI things work that I mentioned. Those are great places to connect.
My big takeaway is we should not be afraid of AI, but we should embrace it and realize that it allows us to be more creative. Thank you, James.
John, thank you so much for having me on your show. It’s been an absolute pleasure.
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