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The Narrative Gym For Business With Park Howell

Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments

14.03.22

Storytelling is a universal way of getting others to understand us. If you want to take advantage of this for your business, then you want to create a narrative gym to practice in. John Livesay discusses marketing and crafting narratives with advertising expert Park Howell. Park is a veteran in the advertising game with over three decades of experience, and he’s prepared to show you the ropes. Learn how storytelling helps you grab attention and keep it and use it for business success. Everyone has a story and now is the time to use it.

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Listen to the podcast here

The Narrative Gym For Business With Park Howell

Our guest is Park Howell, who is a storytelling expert. You can imagine how much I enjoyed interviewing him. We talked about why storytelling pulls at our heartstrings so much because there are high stakes. He says, “When you tell a story, it’s potential events. Events can kill us, but numbers can’t. Numbers make us numb when we listen to them.” You won’t read many numbers on this episode. Enjoy the storytelling.

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Our guest is Park Howell, who is known as the world’s most industrious storyteller, having grown purpose-driven brands by as much as 600%. He’s a veteran of the advertising industry and consults, teaches, coaches, and speaks internationally to help businesses, sales, and marketing leaders excel through stories they tell. He is the host of the popular weekly Business of Story Podcast, which is ranked among the top 10% of downloaded podcasts in the world.

Park published Brand Bewitchery in 2020 to help you use his proven Story Cycle System to craft spellbinding stories for your brand. In 2001, he co-authored The Narrative Gym for Business, which is a short 75-page guide on how to use the foundational narrative framework of the ABT. It makes you confident, compelling, and persuasive. Park, welcome to the show.

John, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

It’s great. We have to give a shout-out to your son, Parker, for introducing us. Your son lives here in Austin, where I do. We met through mutual friends. He said, “You’re like my dad. You’re both storytelling keynote speakers. You both have an advertising background.” I said, “Parker, your dad has the skills I don’t have, which is how to create the ads. I sold them.”

It is a brothers-from-another-mother feeling. I have loved your books. I’m interested to know all your tips and techniques on storytelling from an advertising standpoint. Let’s go back a little bit before you had your children and thought, “I might want to get into the world of advertising.” What was it that made you say, “This is something I’m going to pursue?”

I got to take you back to a show that I saw when I was a little kid. My mom and dad took my two younger brothers and me. There were seven of us in the family. We were known as the little guys. We were the youngest three. My brothers, Chris and Mike, and I went and sat right up front at The 5th Avenue Theater in Downtown Seattle. We went to see a musical, the first one I’ve ever seen in my life, called Yankee Doodle Dandy. The lead was David Cassidy from The Partridge Family.

[bctt tweet=”Without conflict there is no story.” username=”John_Livesay”]

I was a huge Partridge Family watcher because I played the piano and wrote songs. I wanted to be him. He showed up and did this marvelous musical. I was blown away, not only by the music, choreography, and all that, but the stage production and what was happening backstage because I could see over on the side. I was fascinated by that. When we left there that night, I thought to myself, “I want to do something like that, not be the performer or musician but to be in the business of bringing that entertainment to the world.”

I went to Washington State University and studied Music Composition and Theory. I got a degree in that one and also a degree in Communication, figuring I could make a living in communications but not as a composer. I tried my hand at the concert promotion, and I liked it. I wasn’t particularly great at it. I thought, “What’s the next thing that I could build a career around?” It was the advertising world, “How can I take the creativity that I love to do through music and writing?” I call it creative commerce. That’s what kicked me off into the advertising world and what finds me here with you.

Did you get to use your musical talent in any of the jingles that you worked on?

When I first got into the advertising world, I was a lowly writer. They threw me in a cubicle. I was writing press releases for the PR side of it. I wasn’t particularly inspired by that. One day, the ad department got overrun and didn’t have enough writers. I volunteered. I overheard this at lunch and said, “I’ll write that ad.” I wrote a print ad, and they liked it. I wrote another one, and they liked that. I got an agency job. It just so happened I lucked out, and they brought me in. It was a small agency and they were producing a whole ton of radio commercials. Nobody wanted to do them, so they threw them on my desk. I’ll go, “I’ll write them.”

I completely got into the theater of the mind. I would write some of the music in the background for it and bring in sound effects. I was always trying to find a story that I could tell to sell this crazy product, not even knowing that the story is the thing and I’m the story guy. It came naturally to me. I wrote and produced hundreds of those spots, and it was a blast. That’s where my Music Composition and Theory came in because I was finding the rhythm of that spot, tonality, taking an audience somewhere, and how you use sound effects and music to deliver and sell a product.

One of the questions that a lot of readers will have on how you were a creative director at an advertising agency is, “Do you ever have writer’s block? How do you keep yourself staying creative?” A lot of people want to be creative, and either has a mindset that they’re not and don’t even try, or they think, “I am sometimes but not all the time.” People come sometimes struggle about, “I don’t have a story to tell.” Are there any tips that relate to storytelling you can give people on how to find their story and stay creative?

Narrative Gym: How do you use sound effects? How do you use music to deliver and sell a product?

Stop worrying about forcing it. You would have a commercial like, “I got to write this down.” I would write 3 or 4 different treatments for it. They’re all stupid and didn’t work. I would go to bed at night and worry about it. I would find if I got up the next morning and exercised or hiked and stopped thinking about it, I would get an a-ha moment. It worked almost every single time. I started saying, “I’m not going to worry about it. This is the process.” You got to give your time. The more you write and produce, the shorter that process is, and the smaller blanks you have because you’ve worked through so much material in your life.

That’s why a lot of people get their good ideas in the shower or exercising because you’re not trying to force something. I don’t think creativity or a good story can be forced.

Can I tell you about the one that came to me in the shower? It’s a cliché that comes to you in the shower, but it does because you think about other things. I will never forget this. I was newly married. Parker, our son, was new to the world. We had zero money, and we were renting this little house out in Scottsdale, Arizona. I was having to write this commercial for Robinett Roofing. Warren House was one of my favorite clients because he had this big roofing company out there. He was like, “Do whatever you want, Park. I don’t care.” I could come up with all these harebrained things. I was stumped on this one.

I wrote a bunch of different treatments for it, and nothing was working. I was in the shower thinking of water. It was monsoon season in Phoenix, Arizona. If you’ve ever been here in the monsoon season, they can come in the afternoon, drench you and take a 115-degree day down to a 95-degree day just like that. It was a monsoon spot. Here I am in the shower, water is coming down, and I thought to myself, “What if we open with this guy?”

You’re hearing the sounds of clocks going on. He’s talking and commenting about that amazing monsoon that happened the day before. Every time he throws in an expletive, you hear cuckoo when you’re expecting to blink out the expletives. He’s talking to someone in his shop. What you come to find out at the end of the spot is it’s a clock shop, and he’s fixing the guy’s clock that was damaged because of the rain the night before. All those expletives weren’t expletives. It was him dialing in the cuckoo clock, “Had you bought Robinett Roofing, you wouldn’t have this clock problem.” I thought it was funny.

We put it up there, and then the real magic happened. That’s when people started calling in and complaining that we were swearing on the radio. We said, “We’re not swearing. We don’t even suggest an expletive. You are just hearing this cuckoo clock go off where one might be, but you don’t know what the guy said.” Warren loved it because we were told to take it off. We had to take it down. We said, “We’re not going to take it down. We’re going to keep running.” We got a little press out of it. It was quite fun. It came to me in the shower.

[bctt tweet=”Events can kill us but numbers can’t.” username=”John_Livesay”]

That’s clearly a wonderful example of breaking through the clutter, which is what good advertising and stories do. It’s all of that. In Hollywood, there’s a saying about certain actors. No matter how talented they are, it’s not worth it. They’re too hard to work with. There’s the same concept in books. If they’re too long, people go, “It’s too long. I didn’t read it.” That was the thought behind The Narrative Gym that you co-authored, making it a great analogy of, “We know we exercise at the gym, but what are our exercises going to be for storytelling?” We hinted at it. There’s A, B, and T. Why don’t you take us through one of those first? What’s the first one that people should be thinking about?

The And, But, and Therefore is what you’re referring to there. Fast forward after I’ve got my Music Composition and Theory and Communication degrees, I teach Story Composition and Theory and Communication. I started in the complex world of looking at the hero’s journey. Our son Parker is in film school at Chapman University. I’m like, “Send me your books when you’re done with them since I’m paying for them because I want to know what they are teaching you there.” I found the complex hero’s journey and said, “That’s a beautiful thing for business.” I tried to teach in the business world, and it’s too complex.

I jumped in the Blake Snyder’s 15 Story Beats. I tried to teach that. It’s too complex, but I knew it would work. There was the Pixar way. It’s too complex, but I also knew it would work. When I was talking to sales and marketing folks, what they’re looking for is that silver bullet in the story, “Where do I start without having to be a story theorist that I could apply right away?” That’s where I learned about the And, But, and Therefore. I learned about it in a surprising place. Dr. Randy Olson, back in 2013, introduced it to me.

Randy is a Harvard PhD evolutionary biologist and the co-author of the book with me, The Narrative Gym for Business. He went on to USC film school, graduated, and produced three documentaries on climate change and global warming. His most important work is the seven odd books he has written for the science world, teaching them how to communicate using the story frameworks he learned in Hollywood. He also knew that to make it work, he had to simplify it. His a-ha moment came through, from all places, South Park.

Matt Stone and Trey Parker’s Rule of Replacement says, “If you find a script that is boring or you’re sitting across hearing from somebody who is boring, they are and-ing you to death,” meaning they’re in exposition. They’re in act one, and they never move on. They said, “Whenever we can replace an and with a but or a therefore, we will take it out of the script and do it because it moves the story ahead.” That’s what led to the And, But, and Therefore. It uses the three forces of the story of agreements, contradiction with the buts, and the therefore consequence, which our cause and effect and pattern-seeking brain love.

We even have images of our brains responding differently to stories versus other things. That is great because we can back up with science that people buy emotionally and then back up with logic. Most people think they need more information or more exposition. Good stories have a journey and a little bit of conflict. The stakes have to be high. It’s this concept of you starting to describe something and then adding one more thing to pull them in, and little did they know.

Narrative Gym: Most executives communicate and care, but bore. Therefore, tell a story.

No conflict, no story. Without conflict, you’re boring.

It’s this concept of giving people this structure to allow them to craft a story. Let’s give an easy example of it in action.

I was doing some work at Home Depot, working with their inside sales and marketing team and teaching them the And, But, and Therefore. One of their various people there said, “What’s the shortest ABT you’ve ever written?” Here it is, “Most executives communicate and care but bore. Therefore, tell a story.” Let’s expand that and say you are a sales leader. You will kill to connect and convert your customers, but you’re not connecting because you’re boring them with logic and reason when what they want is the emotional pull of a story. Therefore, let me teach you about the And, But, and Therefore that will hack through the noise and hook your audience from the very start.

I love that there’s a short version and an expanded version. That’s the thing that I love about teaching people how to become storytellers. You need a concise one and a longer one. It depends on the time you were given and the audience you have. Most people don’t have that skill, especially in the sales world. I would go on so many sales calls, and they would say, “We’re giving you half an hour.” You walk in, and it’s like, “You only have twenty minutes.” A lot of people would completely freak out.

It has happened to me as a keynote speaker, “We want you for an hour.” You’re like, “I’ve got a great hour.” The CEO went on, “We got to keep this thing on time. We only have 45 minutes.” You got to figure out on the fly, “What slides and stories am I cutting to still come in on time?” That ABT framework can help you go, “I have a short version of that and a longer version of that. Which one am I going to tell here?” It’s ironic because we both work with a lot of salespeople. The old way of doing it was, “Always be closing.”

You remember ABC and the, “Coffee’s for closers,” from that movie. I framed it. You have ABT. I have ABK, which is Always Be Kind, because I teach people, “If you’re not saying kind things to yourself, there’s no way it can be kind to customers.” We should do a little marriage of those. ABT plus ABK is a nice little combo to take out into the world. It also impacts your personal life. I know you’re a great dad. I say, “Storytelling is not only going to help you in your career but also your personal life.” Can you give us the ABT of a parent to a child?

[bctt tweet=”The more you write, the more you produce, the shorter that process is, the smaller blanks you have because you’ve worked through so much material in your life.” username=”John_Livesay”]

“Little Johnny, you had a wonderful day on the mound in your Little League game. I know that you are so excited about one day pitching in the pros, but you’re not eating your piece. Therefore, every outstanding athlete I know places their peas at the top of their food list. If you want to be pitching in the pros, I ask that you eat your peas.”

It’s the old spinach making Popeye strong.

That’s one quick example of it.

Your other wonderful book is Brand Bewitchery. My story of origin in advertising was watching the TV show Bewitched. I thought Darrin Stephens had the coolest job in the world presenting different campaigns. First of all, I love alliterations. When I saw Brand Bewitchery, I went back to that show. I was like, “I’m in.”

Mine was The Dick Van Dyke Show. He was also in the advertising world. He was writing more for the TV show, but to me, there was always an advertising play. I loved Morey and Sally and where they could sit down, play the piano, and come up with these jingles and stuff. That was the one I loved.

It’s so much fun to think about these things. Judith Light talks about how women come up to her and say, “I decided to go into advertising because you were an advertising executive in Who’s the Boss?.” The influence of TV and how people are portrayed is quite impactful because it’s a story. When we see ourselves in stories, that’s the magic.

Brand Bewitchery: How to Wield the Story Cycle System to Craft Spellbinding Stories for Your Brand

It is what a story does. You know this from your sales background. I tried to get an ad sales job at KNIX Radio out here because I love writing radio so much. I thought, “I could sell radio and then write these commercials.” They wouldn’t hire me. I’m like, “What the heck?” It’s hard to get in your line of work, but you know this power of storytelling when you are trying to sell this printout or radio commercial.

It’s always about the emotional pole. You will show them the numbers like, “Condé Nast is who you worked for.” You have to show them the numbers, the reach, and all that stuff. Did you ever start with that? Didn’t you always start with getting another person and telling them some connection story to get them leaning into you?

When I was calling on Lexus’ agency, they specifically would say, “Do not come in here and talk about numbers. We have already analyzed that. We don’t need you to come in and tell us what we read about circulation, readers per copy, or income.” That’s where the a-ha for me was, “Whoever tells the best story about why they have come up with this marketing idea for this particular model and audience is the one that’s going to get the ads.” It was not necessarily that people needed you to regurgitate a bunch of numbers that they could look up for themselves to see if it’s a fit.

That’s table stakes. We are only going to consider magazines that have an audience that has a certain income that could even afford our car. Otherwise, we’re throwing money in the wind. We need to get them involved. What was so interesting working with Lexus, especially at the beginning of their launch, was that they explained that people are internally or externally motivated. I’m fascinated to know your thoughts on this as a creative person as well as a storyteller. People would buy a BMW or a Mercedes, which are their big competitors, and some would buy it to show off, “I’m an agent. I’ve got a BMW. I want to drive in front of my country club.”

Some people are like, “I bought this car because I liked the craftsmanship. I’m not trying to impress anybody. I bought it for me.” That’s who they had to target to buy a Lexus versus those who love the brand for the status. They didn’t have status when they first started. This is my question to you because you are such a brand expert. Have you ever had a situation where a brand was the challenger, and it didn’t have the rich history that somebody else did, yet they still had to tell their story and figure out a way to appeal to those who are more people internally motivated?

I’m working with a medical device manufacturer out of Chicago. I will keep their name out of this. As a brand, they’re very wise about stories only after they made the big mistake of leading with data. Turn your data into drama. All you have to think about is this. What is the first syllable in the word numbers?

[bctt tweet=”It’s not about what you make. It’s what you make happen.” username=”John_Livesay”]

It’s numb.

If you’re leading with numbers, our Homo sapiens brain was never created to make any context out of numbers unless we have already put the context in play, which means you have to tell a story that demonstrates the real ramifications of what you’re talking about. The best way to demonstrate that is to pull up your iPhone or digital device and look at the weather report.

What does it tell you? It tells you the data does 1 of 3 things. It is reporting what happened, monitoring the event that’s happening, or attempting to predict an event in the future. Our brain doesn’t necessarily care about numbers. It’s a trigger for the event. Why would we care way more about the event those numbers represent than the numbers themselves?

It determines whether we should take a trip, put a coat on, bring an umbrella, and all these behavioral things.

If you were to drill that down to the most basal thing, why do you think that is?

In terms of weather, it goes back to fight or flight, “Is it safe to go out?”

Narrative Gym: Our Homo sapiens brain was never created to really make any context out of numbers, unless we have already put the context in play, which means you have to tell a story that demonstrates the real ramifications of what you’re talking about.

It’s the survival of the fittest. Events can kill us, but numbers can’t. When you are talking as a brand, your stories are not about what you make. That is typically a product or service that’s already commoditized because we live in the land of abundance. You don’t talk about what you make. You talk about what you make happen in people’s lives, like the event and outcome. When you get boiled into the trenches of what you make, you are now defaulting to logic and reason backed up by data and numbers. Your audiences don’t give a crap about that.

Let me give you a quick example. It’s one of my favorites. André-Martin Hobbs started this company up in Canada called Prêt Auto Partez. It is a used car dealership for risk-credited subprime Canadian car buyers. When I say that to you, the first thing you’re thinking is, “We see them all over the place. They’re a bunch of sharks. They’re preying on the subprime people that are going to have to pay through the nose for the loan on this car. They will make 4 or 5 payments. We’re going to go and repo it and do the whole thing all over again.”

That’s the anti-story. We talked about this. André has this most amazing thing. He goes, “I’m not so much about selling cars as I am about repairing the credit of Canadians. In doing so, I can sell cars to them.” What he does is you may not even realize that he’s going to put you through this. You show up at Prêt Auto Partez and say, “I finally got my act together. My credit is coming back. I’m tired of riding the bus. I want the freedom of owning my own car. I don’t care what it costs. I’ll make the monthly payments. Put me in a car.”

He says, “Not so fast. You first have to sit down with our financial planner. It may take three hours, but we are going to teach you what car you can afford. If indeed you can’t afford a car, how are you going to make these payments over the course of the next two years without ever missing a single payment? In doing so in the Canadian system, you will have repaired your credit and moved up a notch 2 or 3.”

He was about not just selling this car but also the outcome of helping Canadians repair their credit. Here’s the ABT for his brand narrative. It’s speaking directly to the customer, “You want the freedom of owning your own car and how it represents your self-esteem.” He knows that because that’s exactly what their research told them, but you have crappy credit, “Therefore, at Prêt Auto Partez, we are going to put you in a car you can afford to get you back on the road to financial freedom.”

It all led to the tagline that his entire company is built on, “Prêt Auto Partez, your vehicle to financial freedom.” It’s not about what you make. He sells used cars. It’s what you make happen. It’s helping Canadians reclaim their creditworthiness. He became the fastest car dealership in Quebec with that and is now taking that whole concept and franchising it throughout North America precisely because he got his brand story dialed in.

[bctt tweet=”It’s madness being a human being and stories are the only way we can create meaning out of that madness.” username=”John_Livesay”]

That’s such a great visual that you’re getting on the road to your financial freedom. It’s an unspoken fear back to the survival thing, “If something happens, my car is going to get repossessed.” Imagine if a brokerage company didn’t let people get loans for homes they couldn’t afford. We would have eliminated a big part of the mortgage crisis in 2008. It’s wonderful.

In your book Brand Bewitchery, one of my favorite parts is where you talk about, “Life is chaotic. Storytelling is the remedy that we seek to create meaning out of the madness of being alive. There is a science and bewitchery of storytelling.” I don’t think I’ve ever read or heard anyone talk about storytelling being a remedy to create meaning. That is needed now with all the chaos going on. How did you come up with this concept? How can people use this to get some meaning when they’re feeling overwhelmed?

I wish I could say it’s all mine and I’m so brilliant, but I’m not. I’m good at connecting dots. I was at Robert McKee’s famous four-day Story Seminar at the LAX Sheraton with my son Parker. He went for the film world. I went for the marketing world back in 2009 or 2010. I wanted to know what I could use from a screenwriting perspective in the advertising, marketing, and sales world. He stood upon the stage the first day and said, “A story is the only way we can create meaning out of the madness of being a human being.” I lifted it directly from him and thought, “If that’s good enough for Hollywood and the multibillion-dollar industry in telling that story, then it would work for us.”

In that same workshop, I’m guessing he did the same for you. He breaks down why Casablanca is such a great story and all the different levels of it. If you think about the madness going on in the world in that particular movie with the war, trying to have friendships, death could be imminent. There’s so much chaos going on, but there’s also a love story and a friendship story going on. That somehow is the remedy to all that madness. That’s another example of it coming together.

It’s a fabulous example. Hollywood used to do it well. I’m not sure if they do it quite as well as they used to only because it seems like they don’t take the time, and audiences don’t necessarily have the attention span they used to. You think about the brands or sales teams that you work with. They are all working in this chaos of the pandemic.

Our primal limbic system is all about survival and fight or flight. It was built to fend off that, “There’s a saber-toothed tiger. What the heck should I do next?” We have this killer virus that has been going on for years. There seems to be no end in sight. Our limbic system is jumping all over like, “Do I fight or flight? Do I get back or not? Do I wear a mask or don’t?” We have all of these competing stories coming in, and it’s left to our own devices what we’re going to do about it. Our limbic system is like, “I need something definite and a story that I can believe in.”

Narrative Gym: We were never meant to create great relationships in this weird virtual world we’re in because we have a hard time reading the room when you someone on a one-dimensional screen.

We’re all selling and marketing in this chaos. Let’s add to that virtual world. We were never meant to create great relationships in this weird virtual world we’re in. We have a hard time reading the room when I’ve got you one-dimensional on a screen. Add that to the chaos of what’s going on. What we’re trying to do, like Casablanca, is built somewhat of a love story between that audience or person sitting across from us and say, “I’m here to help, providing I can help you.”

Don’t waste their time if you can’t. Leave them alone, for crying out loud. If you can help them, then that’s where the ABT comes in. There’s one last thing for your audience to think about. Here’s how you write it. The ABT makes you place your audience at the center of the story. They are the protagonist or the hero. You start that statement of agreement to validate their state and what it is that they want. You identify who they are, what they want, and why it is important to them. You’re raising the stakes.

Next is, you’re going to introduce the conflict of the contradiction, but they don’t have it because of this. Therefore, the resolution is what I have to offer you to help you overcome and get what you want out of life. When you do that, you have to understand your audience. Understand who they are, appreciate what they want and why they want it, and empathize with what they don’t have. That helps you get super focused on telling a message from their point of view. I’m here to help you get it.

What great marketing advertising copy does is put words to someone’s internal thoughts. They think, “Are you in my head? How did you know I was feeling that way? I haven’t even articulated it that clearly.” That’s when you don’t have to push anymore because they feel like, “If you understand my problem, then you must have my solution,” which is what I see going on. When you said that we’re not designed for this virtual world, it’s interesting. I had an experience with my godson. I’ve watched him since he was a baby. He’s in New York, and I’m in Austin. I didn’t get to see him for years. I was in Manhattan between Christmas and New Year. I had seen him on FaceTime many times.

After I left, he said to his mom, “Uncle John is more fun in person than he is on FaceTime.” He was surprised by that. I thought, “Thank God.” Young people talk about IRL or in real life versus digital, the metaverse, and all these other things coming. You’re like, “I still think you need to be more compelling, interesting, and connected in person.” If you don’t learn how to tell stories, it’s going to be hard for you to have conversations with people because you don’t know how to connect. That’s the best way for us to connect as humans. If people want to find out about hiring you as a sales keynote speaker or have you come in as a consultant, where should they go?

Come on over to my website, BusinessOfStory.com. I’m like you. I’ve got a show every week that comes out on Monday. You can check me out on iTunes and those places. If you want to shoot me an email, send it over to [email protected].

[bctt tweet=”You have to really understand your audience, understand who they are, appreciate what it is they want and why they want it, and then have empathy for why they don’t currently have. That helps you get really super focused from telling a message from their point of view.” username=”John_Livesay”]

Thanks, Park. It has been great having you. Is there any last thought or quote you want to leave us with?

As you are working through your storytelling and trying to grow as a more confident and compelling storyteller, I’ll leave you with how I close every one of my shows. That is this. The most potent story you will ever tell is the story you tell yourself. Make sure it’s a great one. Thanks for having me here, John.

Thank you, Park. That was great.

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The Mindful Marketer With Lisa Nirell

Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments

09.03.22

Mindfulness is not the first thing that comes to mind when talking about marketing. Zen and being one with nature is the opposite of the high-stress environment of marketing. But, Lisa Nirell makes it work! She is the mindful marketer and she’s here with your host John Livesay on how to practice mindfulness. Lisa is the founder and CMO of EnergizeGrowth LLC and is also the author of The Mindful Marketer. Join in as Lisa shares the secrets to innovative marketing, why she is the CMO whisperer, and more. Go out, practice mindfulness, and make friends with nature.

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Listen to the podcast here

The Mindful Marketer With Lisa Nirell

Our guest is Lisa Nirell, author of The Mindful Marketer. She said, “Don’t let a good crisis go to waste.” She also talks about the key to success, especially as a CMO, is not about doing more. It’s about being more. Find out what she means. Enjoy the episode.

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Our guest is Lisa Nirell, who helps marketing leaders build more sustainable companies and better lives. She’s known as the CMO Whisperer, a LinkedIn faculty member, live streamer, podcaster, executive coach, and award-winning author of The Mindful Marketer and EnergizeGrowth NOW. It’s so much fun to have her because I’m known as the Pitch Whisperer, and I get to talk to the CMO Whisperer. Lisa, welcome to the show.

It’s great to be here, John. Thanks for inviting me.

Let’s dive into your own story of origin. You can take us back to childhood, school, wherever you want, where you’ve got interested in marketing, in general.

I have been thinking a lot about my father. He passed away years ago. It has been fun to connect all the dots that he taught me that helped me get to where I am. I have been an entrepreneur for many years. I looked back and realized, “Dad was preparing me for this.” The first moment happened when I was about twelve. We used to live in this bucolic town in Connecticut at the top of a hill. This is in the ‘70s. You could open your front door and let your pets roam free. My mom, dad, and I had a dog named Buster who liked to hang out with another dog named Barney.

Mindful Marketing: Wake up, check the weather, and figure out what to do or what not to do. Sitting on your sofa and looking out the window is a perfectly fine exercise to do on the weekend.

One day they didn’t come home. Back then, there were no email and cell phones. We started calling all the neighbors until an elderly woman, miles away, said, “I think I hear dogs barking in the woods.” My dad and I embarked on this long hike. Lo and behold, we heard the dogs barking, found them on a 4×4-foot ledge, which had a 100-foot drop. Dad dropped me with his pants belt. He said, “I need to let you get down on the ledge and lift the dogs to safety.” At age twelve, that’s a feat.

That’s not very often that you get that opportunity. The dogs were emaciated because they had not drunk nor eaten in three days. This continues. I think about the time then I’ve got my driver’s license. I drove my mother’s Ford Pinto wagon back from high school up the big hill. I spun the car, and it was facing a ledge. I called dad and said, “Thank God, you are here. Here’s the car key.” He said, “No, get back in the car. I’m going to teach you and walk you through how to get your car out of the spin and away from the ledge.”

These little lessons have prepared me for my first pandemic of completely retooling my business virtually within three weeks, the courage to make some tough decisions, release some people from my team, hire new people that were prepared for the change and have the courage to fall in love again as well in the middle of a pandemic. It has been a roller coaster but I owe a lot of the courage muscles to my dad.

I also know from reading about you that your dad was an inventor and had a lot of patents for medical security devices. That must have been so inspiring to be brought up by somebody who not only teaches you how to fix problems for yourself, as opposed to rescuing you but you’ve got to see somebody not just creating one thing but multiple things. That spirit of creativity is where that got born in you.

That is true. He was an inventor, had several patents filed, and was in the security business. He invented all kinds of push-button security locks and added machines before the computing age. My mother also taught me creativity because she was a fashion consultant and worked in upscale women’s boutiques. She brought a different type of creativity to the family than my father did. He was the fixer and innovator but mom was the warm-hearted fashionista. They brought very different gifts and talents. Isn’t creativity a wonderful thing?

[bctt tweet=”It’s not about doing more. It is about being more.” via=”no”]

Yes. Especially, many people think if I’m not a painter or an inventor, I’m not creative but you talk about that boredom creates a space for creativity and self-reflection. I’m thinking your philosophy might be, “Don’t resist being bored, embrace it.” You have this great quote that I want to make as one of our tweets. “It’s not about doing more. It’s about being more.” Can you expound on that?

I will expound as little as possible and say when was the time any of us walked outside, turned off our phones, looked up at the sky, and allowed nature to be our friend? When I think back at how I named my company, EnergizeGrowth, how I started my business, every single moment when those a-ha moments came to me, I was outside and in nature. I wasn’t sitting at my desk with a 2×2 matrix or an Excel spreadsheet trying to do market research. I was out with an open heart and mind in the place I loved the most.

We hear so often that people get inspiration in the shower and all these other places. We don’t know why something is happening when we are not trying to force something to happen.

The other great place to get bored is when you are sleeping because that’s the time that our brains are refiling. They are taking all the stuff out of the filing cabinet, putting it back in where it belongs, and allowing us to process issues for the day. That’s also a wonderful place for boredom to happen. My friends always say, “Did you have a busy weekend?” I say, “I did not.” For the most part, I woke up, looked out, checked the weather, and then figured out what to do or what not to do. Sitting on the sofa and looking out the window is a perfectly good exercise.

You are also a speaker like I am. One of your talks, which has a very clever title, is From Order Taker To Innovator. I like anything that has a little rhyme to it. It makes it easy to remember. You cover five rules on how people can spend more time creating things that are innovative for marketing. Can you share one of those rules with us or is it what you described? Don’t be afraid to be bored.

Mindful Marketing: Communities that are aging gracefully have three cornerstones in common. One, they are focused on their wellness. Two, they have a purpose. And three, they have a robust community.

I look back at some of the research on aging. If you read what doctors say about people who age gracefully and look at communities around the globe that have very healthy aging people living together, they have three things in common. Number one, they are focused on their wellness. Number two, they have a purpose. Number three, they have a robust community. I believe that we have to have those foundations in place for any innovation to occur. COVID has put a sucker punch in all of those areas.

Many of us have had to revert to online communities. The quarantine messed with my mind a few times. We are coming out collectively out of a state of trauma and grief. Unfortunately, overdoses are at an all-time high in the United States, depression and treatment of depression and therapy are at all-time highs. They are going to be for a while.

I would recommend for anyone who’s reading this, if you don’t remember anything else from what I have to say, use this as a time to rebuild those three cornerstone pieces of your life and be gentle with yourself. Once those three are back to some form of stability, innovation can begin to occur and happen. As marketers, we can start to contribute in a more wholehearted way to the growth conversations in our organizations.

In your book, The Mindful Marketer, I love anything with an alliteration. We all know the concept of being in the moment and mindful being in nature. I’m not so sure that many marketers automatically think about taking that Zen quality of being aware of their thoughts and feelings to their marketing. How did you come up with the title?

I owe that to a brainstorming session or five with one of my favorite mentors named Mark Levy. He calls himself the big sexy idea guy. I called Mark when I was in negotiations with my publisher, and I said, “Mark, I have trouble coming up with the big sexy idea for my next book. Would you help me?” He said, “Lisa, it’s time for you to out yourself. You have been hiding and haven’t told people that you have been a mindfulness practitioner for the last years.”

[bctt tweet=”Find your purpose by asking yourself ‘what business are you in?'” via=”no”]

I said, “That is true.” Guilty as charged because I don’t like to proselytize. If people are interested in the various mindfulness practices that have helped me get through multiple moments of trauma, I will talk to them about it.” However, you will notice I don’t ever push them to try any form of mindfulness practice unless it calls to them.

Mark said, “You’ve got many years of marketing and sales experience, and marketed some of the most complex technology and professional services solutions, 6 and 7-figure solutions, to big businesses. You are also a mindfulness practitioner. What you are is you are the mindful marketer.” I said, “Mic drop moment for the mindful marketer.” That’s how that was born. This book, which I started writing years ago, still has legs more than ever.

When people like you share your story of looking at things that haven’t been connected, what it is about you that makes you unique, and then figuring out a way to package that in a way that makes it unique and memorable, it helps to hear those stories. Let’s do another one. How did you come up with being called the CMO Whisperer? What does that mean?

I was sitting across lunch one day in Tysons Corner, Virginia, with a 25-year marketing veteran named Sam. He said to me, “Lisa, I needed to meet with you. I have an existential crisis.” I said, “What’s going on?” He says, “The Board of Directors wants me to start having revenue responsibility. I have never sold anything. I’m a marketing leader. They want me to solve problems, understand and deploy customer experience initiatives. I don’t even know what that is yet but I’m not so sure I want to stay in the CMO profession. I’m overwhelmed and feeling alone in this.”

I said, “What do you think about helping me build a private community of CMOs who all work in non-competing industries? We can come together, innovate, solve problems, and share resources. Would that be of value?” He said, “Yes.” He helped me build the community years ago. Here we are working with some of the country’s top CMOs with that purpose in mind and helping them make that leap from that order taker mode to innovator mode. Our members get promoted faster than their competitors, and they enjoy a more enriching life.

Mindful Marketing: CMOs can go two paths. Either they exit a toxic work environment faster, or they build credibility faster because they are appreciated and given room to grow.

Let’s talk about the elephant in the room a little bit about the CMO world. Typically, people are not in those jobs for more than eighteen months. There are a lot of stress to perform quickly, keep the job, and a lot of pressure in Corporate America around that. I’m imagining having this group that you were describing, EnergizeGrowth, can help people tap into other people’s ideas as well as their network when they need it.

Being the contrarian that I am and I have been known to be not just the CMO Whisperer but also a provocateur, I challenge people to look at those turnover numbers. The people who are reporting the high turnover happen to be recruiting firms. I view that like the fox guarding the henhouse statistic. I would look at that and also challenge people to say, “Did you bring that upon yourself?” If you focus on output versus outcome, you have already started a job on the wrong foot.

People can find some of my posts at LisaNirell.com. I’ve got 110 articles and another 50 videos out on LinkedIn if you follow me there. It has been very interesting working with CMOs around this topic. We find that the members of our group either exit a toxic work environment faster or build credibility faster in the company they like, where they are appreciated and given room to grow. If I can help them in either path, I say, “I have had a good day at the office.”

It’s reframing that need for fear. No good ideas come out of fear. I was fortunate enough to be asked to be one of the speakers at the Coca-Cola CMO Summit. They had invited all the CMOs of all the quick service restaurants and movie theater chains that had sold their product versus another. I wanted to give them some storytelling tips. I remember asking the CMO of Domino’s Pizza. I said, “What’s one of your biggest marketing challenges?”

I normally would get answers around going after a certain customer or the niche. He said, “Our biggest marketing challenge is getting tech people to work here. We are in the Midwest, competing with Amazon.” His team was in charge of that wonderful app that tracks your pizza order and tells you who’s put it in the oven or the name of the person driving it to you and all that interactive connection.

[bctt tweet=”Don’t be afraid to be bored.” via=”no”]

He said, “We used to say that we are a pizza company that uses tech to get tech people to come work here. Now we say we are an eCommerce company that happens to sell pizzas.” I said, “That sounds a lot more like Amazon books.” I wanted to get your intake because a lot of people assume marketing is very outward-facing towards consumers buying a product but CMOs are also responsible for getting the right people, at least in their division, the branding of the company.

You bring up a point and a pattern that I started noticing right before the pandemic. The CMOs that I work with and advise are expected to focus generally on making sure that our demand gen, brand, and image with investors or stakeholders is the best it can be. Right before the pandemic, I sat down with the former head of employee engagement and recruiting at Kimberly-Clark.

He kicked off a phenomenally successful program to help apply marketing strategies to attract candidates to one of their Wisconsin plants. They were trying to attract high-quality corporate interns and younger professionals to Wisconsin. They are competing against brands that are based in big cities like New York, LA and Chicago. The level of engagement and gamification they use to attract good candidates to the Wisconsin plant paid off. Taking those marketing skills that he generally only used to bring in more customers could be equally applied to their recruiting and employee engagement programs. Klaus is a great guy and knows how to use storytelling to tell the Kimberly-Clark story.

I love that there’s a gamification element into the marketing because that says a lot about the culture right there. It’s a little playful, fun, even not quite so intense data-driven that they forget there’s a playfulness to that. There are so many nuances in how you market a company to attract top talent. Especially with the Great Resignation, brands have to not just attract but also figure out a way to keep them.

Another topic that I wanted your expertise on is a lot of companies are focusing on the environmental, social, and corporate governance of what a company stands for. Are they lead certified to be green? They have to measure and improve that, not just to stockholders but to the employees. It’s a recruiting tool. I’m guessing that also falls under marketing. They have to make sure that that’s part of their culture and why some people are investing in them for social impact or whatever the issue is or they are being environmentally correct. That also becomes another part of your marketing messaging. Do you have any thoughts on that or an example of someone you have seen doing that well?

Mindful Marketing: When your business is facing a financial crisis, you need to figure out why are you in business? Maybe you can’t go head-to-head with your competition. So differentiate yourselves and tell a different story.

One of the things I am not is, I am not an expert in ESG initiatives. The only thing I remember is years ago when the business round table worked hard to get those 140 CEOs to sign that pledge on sustainability. Sadly, the jury is still out as to whether there was ever any progress or improvement. A lot of people and journalists claim that it was nothing more than posturing. I tried to reach out to the business round table run by former GM CEO, Mary Barra. They haven’t responded to me yet.

I would love to see more movement there. I understand that many companies are still trying to figure out how to establish baseline data on what to measure and how to hold themselves accountable. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the G20 Summit and the Glasgow discussions, whether we see the government step forward and make the big moves or whether corporations step forward and make the big moves first. I feel like you, and I are in the middle of the maelstrom. We may not know for a few years how things play out or what you are seeing.

I gave a talk to a company called Measurabl that measures that data. That was my first awareness and introduction into how important it is for companies in the commercial real estate world, especially when they are building a building, that has to hit a lot of checkmarks. It ties into the recruiting part. A lot of people, Gen X, Millennials, whatever you want to call them, are a big factor for them. They don’t just want to have a job. They want to have a job where they feel like the company’s values are matching their concerns. That is a relatively new emphasis that I don’t think was around in the ‘80s and ‘90s. There was Earth Day and all things like that but that was an isolated thing.

Companies were like, “Let’s all recycle,” but this is a much more sophisticated in-depth look at what we believe. We want to have those people work here and even attract a certain investor who’s not just looking for a good ROI but wants to put their money into a company that has a social impact. I find that whole concept fascinating because the old school of the ends justified the means. As long as we are hitting our numbers, no one cares if we are polluting or whatever the issue is, making a car that’s not safe, or all the other things that come into play. It’s great. It makes the CMOs job much more challenging because there are so many different messages you have to communicate beyond selling a product or service.

I want people to shift their thinking away from a conversation around the planet and think a little higher around the purpose. What is the purpose of our organization? Follow the footsteps of the former CEO of Best Buy, Hubert Joly. Hubert and I are both members of Marshall Goldsmith 100 Coaches community. You can read more about us on 100Coaches.com. When he was hired to be CEO of Best Buy, they lost $1.2 billion in one quarter.

[bctt tweet=”If you’re focusing on output versus outcome, you’ve already started a job on the wrong foot. ” via=”no”]

The first thing they said to him is, “We need you to lay off people and close stores,” but he said, “No, we are essentially facing an existential crisis. We need to figure out why we are in business. Amazon is cleaning our clocks. We can’t go head-to-head with them. We have to differentiate ourselves and have to tell a different story.”

What they did is they came up with 4 or 5 key areas to focus on and came out with this beautiful and simple message, which is, “Our purpose is to enrich lives through technology.” If you haven’t followed Hubert Joly or read his book, The Heart of Business, it brings it all together. ESG initiatives fall underneath that purpose. There is a place for it but the higher-level question that we need to ask is, “What business are we in?”

I’m going to be leading several offsite planning sessions for my clients here as we embark on the new year. One of the exercises you can do, which also was popular at Airbnb is to set up pairings of people, dyads, have people sit across from each other, go through five rounds, ask each other and take turns, “What business are we in?” You have to do it five rounds. You can’t comment or judge what the other person says. You write it down and say, “Thank you.” You go through it five times. That’s how Airbnb came up with their purpose statement around, “We want people to belong and feel like they belong.” Not we rent outhouses.

That’s one of our mutual friends, who’s also been a guest on the show, Chip Conley, who’s one of the Founders of Airbnb and continues to help people, not just figure out their purpose and business but in their third act with the Modern Elder Academy, which I love.

He’s a great guy. I’ve got to get down to Baja. He got hired by the Cofounders of Airbnb to teach them about the hospitality industry. He was an employee for a while. He still advises them but he came in after they founded the company to get them to the next level. What are they valued at? It’s $120 billion.

The Mindful Marketer: How to Stay Present and Profitable in a Data-Driven World By Lisa Nirell

Before I let you go, I wanted to have one more awareness of the amazing impact you are having. You also have a LinkedIn learning about helping people become an effective CMO. Can you tell people how they could find out about that or what that entails?

You can do a couple of things. You can go to LisaNirell.com and make sure you sign up to receive our insights and invites. I have a course that 11,000, almost 12,000 people have finished on LinkedIn Learning. It’s called The Effective CMO. When you launch a product, you come out with the best of intentions and say, “This is for directors of marketing and VPs of marketing who someday want to grow up and be a CMO.”

What has been fabulous is people who don’t understand CMOs or who work with a CMO but don’t get what it’s like to be a CMO are taking the course as well. You can go to LinkedIn Learning. I’m also hosting December 9th, 2021, a follow-on update to the course on LinkedIn Live called The Seven Secrets of Modern CMOs. The role of the CMO has changed since the course was launched pre-pandemic. People can follow me on LinkedIn or get my newsletter at LisaNirell.com. We will make sure you get some of our latest insights and lessons learned.

Inviting people to enroll and get your insights and invites. From a branding standpoint, that’s so memorable. It’s alliteration and not a typical opt-in to get emails from us. You have packaged even that in such a way that is cutting through the clutter, making it feel warm and personal. There are so many examples of what you are doing and the kind of people that you get to work with. If anybody is lucky enough to get to work with you or have you as their coach, I’m sure their business will certainly take off. Any last thoughts you want to leave us with? Any last quote or an insight you want to share before we say goodbye?

Everyone, don’t let a good crisis go to waste. That’s my advice for people. I don’t care what profession you are in. This is a time to revisit, who am I? What is my business’s purpose? How can marketing communicate that purpose to the world and make the new world a better place than pre-COVID? Please don’t sit back and wait for life to happen to you at this stage. The new world is emerging and let’s be part of it. I also want to honor you, John, because I love joining these shows. I get invited a lot to speak and be on live streams. You did your homework. You made this so easy for me.

That’s one of my favorite quotes, Arthur Andersen, the famous tennis pro, Arthur Ashe, “The key to success is confidence and key to confidence is preparation.” I treat these interviews like it’s an Olympic moment or a Super Bowl. It’s also a form of respect for the guest. I’m thrilled that you noticed. Thank you.

I appreciate you, John.

If you want to find out more about Lisa, her book, coaching program and courses, go to LisaNirell.com.

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Epic Business With Justin Breen

Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments

24.05.21

Everyone wants to be successful, but not everyone can be epic. Being epic means being able to recognize opportunities and act on them. John Livesay sits down and talks with veteran journalist and CEO Justin Breen as he talks about the impact his parents had on his life, what he learned from his years in journalism and his formula for an epic business. Learn what you need to be epic!

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Listen to the podcast here

Epic Business With Justin Breen

Our guest on the show is Justin Breen, the author of Epic Business. He said there’s no competition in his life. There’s only collaboration. He shares with us the three secrets to mindset, abundance, visionary and investment. Let’s see what he means by that. Enjoy the episode.

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Welcome to the show. Our guest is Justin Breen. He’s the Founder and CEO of a public relations firm, BrEpic Communications. It was launched in 2017. They work with businesses and brands to craft click-worthy stories for local, regional and national outlets. Prior to this, he was a journalist writing for publications as The Times of Northwest Indiana. In 2021, Justin published his first book Epic Business, where he shares secrets from the world’s top entrepreneurs and how he applied this to his own company. We’re going to be talking about one of the things that he was so aggravated about when he was a journalist and how that was the impetus for him to create a completely different public relations firm and flip the script. Justin, welcome to my show.

You’re a great entrepreneur, a high-level thinker and a fellow Illinois graduate from The College of Media Communications. I’m very excited to talk to you and I simplify everything. I love talking to people like you because it’s a perfect collaboration.

The other thing that we have in common is my passion is helping people clarify their stories. Let’s get the elevator pitch so concise and clear that it compels people to want to ask you more. Simplifying, clarifying or kissing cousins in my book is different but very much in that world of let’s do that. That leads us into the concept of sound bites, all kinds of good stuff and the importance of how to be a good guest that you are certainly the expert on. I love to hear people’s stories of origin. We gave away a little bit of it and that you’re from Illinois but that’s the tip of the iceberg there. You can go back to childhood and now that you’re a father, I’m always fascinated to see some of your own childhood memories and your own kids. Feel free to tell us your own little story of origin, how you got into journalism in the first place and that big pivot to start your PR firm.

I was born with a story. I was a journalist before I was even born. What does that mean? When I was born, my father was 61 and my mom was 27, so that’s a 34-year difference. How did that happen? My father was a World War II hero. He was shot down nine times in combat. He became an attorney in the Nuremberg Trials. He and his three brothers came from nothing in Elgin, close to Elk Grove. All of them serve actively. My father died when I was thirteen. My whole life is a wow that it happened. Everyone says, “Wow,” and I appreciate that but wow to me is only a wow if it happened.

Epic Business: Arrogant people think they’re great at everything. Confident people know they’re exceptionally great at one, two, maybe three things.

When my father was fighting toward the end of World War II and the Battle of Hürtgen Forest, he kept a diary of his experiences fighting. I found the diary after he died. Besides my wife and children, it’s my most cherished possession. I don’t care a lot about material things. That’s meaningless to me. That diary is very important. I read it every now and then and I write exactly as he does. Inform and entertain, no fluff, no BS. His diary is one of the greatest things ever written. I’m a world-class writer but he’s a much better writer than I am. It’s the most important thing besides my wife and children because it’s this incredible connection I have to him that’s very powerful. It’s very important to me. One day I’ll get it to publish. That’s my dad.

My mom was 27. When my dad was in his late 50s, he was driving on the expressway near Chicago. A drunk driver went across the median. He hit him head-on. The drunk driver was killed instantly. My dad broke every bone in his body but he survived. My mom was his nurse. My mom nursed him back to health. Most of my day, I’m talking to people like you, the highest performing entrepreneurs, smartest minds, most successful people and I’ve never met anyone in my entire life with more hustle than my mom ever. She’s the ultimate survive and thrive with what she has overcome in her life. You combine the ultimate survive and thrive with a genius writing brain, military war hero and no excuses, you figure it out. Here I am. I’m a byproduct while it happened.

We were talking about Françoise Gilot being with Picasso. They’re having a huge age difference as well. That concept of those moments in life and then you’re able to give a frame of reference of how old your dad would be must impact your whole look on the legacy you’re leaving for your sons.

It’s everything. You’re a hot seat. I was looking forward to it because I do a lot of interviews but I knew talking to you was going to be more than that. You can figure things out very quickly. My sons are young. The older one started his first business when he was seven and the younger one wants to be a Navy SEAL. My father would have been so proud. He might have been the greatest dad ever. The best part of being an entrepreneur by far, there’s not even a close second is that there’s this book called Mastery. It’s my favorite book.

[bctt tweet=”Wow is only wow if it actually happened.” username=”John_Livesay”]

Robert Greene, if they were alive, interviewed all these masters. If they weren’t alive, he did anecdotal research. Almost without exception, masters came from fathers who were exceptionally high-performing entrepreneurs or owned businesses because at the time, only the men work. They learned all this and they rebelled. I’m excited to give my sons this foundation and I can’t wait for them to rebel against me. It’s going to be exciting when they do that and see what they do. You give them this foundation. It’s a shortcut to 99.9% of the world. Most of the world’s not living up here. They’re living wherever they’re living. To give them that foundation is the best part by far.

I think of it in terms of a tree that is planted in fertile soil and has the ideal mother to grow.

That’s all it is. You’re giving them roots. We’re giving them the right roots with the right soil mixture and then whatever they do with that. If they want to be an entrepreneur, I don’t care. They’re just getting that foundation. That’s the key.

There’s research that people who know about their heritage and feel connected to their family are much more successful and much happier than these people who don’t have a sense of identity from childhood. What a great gift you’re giving them and what a great gift your parents gave you to pass on.

Epic Business: The formula for building a successful global company is very simple. See a problem, create solution to problem, problem solved, successful global company.

I was a journalist for years. I interview people my whole life. I never come prepared with any question ever with the exception of two. One, I asked who your parents are or where because when you know where you came from, you can understand who you are and where you’re going. The people that understand where they came from, know who they are and where they’re going. When they think about where they came from, they think about who they are and then where they’re going. It all starts with where you came from. That’s the first question I ask and that you asked that first as well doesn’t surprise me. The only other thing I always ask is at the end of the interview, I ask, “Is there anything else you’d like to add, something that would be good for this story or I’m missing.” Many times, they’re saving something. They’re saving the nugget, they weren’t asked in the way that they could present it. Many times that’s the lead of the story, that last question.

We have hinted that there’s an ability to simplify things and how that makes you cut through the clutter. The entrepreneurs that are listening and they’re wondering, “I tend to be very verbose. What I do is so complicated. I can’t simplify it.” I wanted to give an example that I thought was intriguing, funny and a great example of a wonderful sound bite, which is something I would click on, which your PR firm is a master at is how PR agencies aggravated you for years. In one sentence, we know that you’ve been a journalist for years. We know that there’s something that PR agencies are doing that’s wrong because it’s aggravating you as a journalist. If you have any desire to get any kind of publicity, it would then compel you to say, “Maybe I should click on this and read.” We all don’t want to make the mistakes that other people are making. We know that risk aversion theory is going on there. My question for you is, what were these PR firms doing that were aggravating you as a journalist?

I’m a 100% simplifier. I think you might be like me. Your company is 100% multiplier but at your core, you’re a 100% simplifier. I could be wrong about that but that’s the vibe I get. I hear something and simplify. Less is more. The formula for building a successful global company is very simple. Here it is. This is the whole formula. “See a problem, create a solution to the problem, problem solved, execute it. Successful global company.” I was a journalist for years creating my entire business model based on how PR firms annoy me for years.

I’m giving you that background because a lot of people talk and there’s no meat behind it. I have no tolerance for that. I don’t like to talk unless there’s meat behind it. As a journalist, you received hundreds of useless press releases every single day from people you don’t know. One, they’re from people you don’t know. I don’t know who these people are. Two, they’re useless because they talk about what someone does and not who they are. Nobody cares about what you do. They care about who you are. If they care about who you are, they will care about what you do. All these press releases are talking about new person hired, company sold. Nobody cares.

[bctt tweet=”Less is more when you tell a story.” username=”John_Livesay”]

We’ve talked about the person behind that and what inspires them, where they came from or what they’ve overcome in their life then they will care and they’ll talk about what you do. I was annoyed. The company’s entire process is on my website. There are no tricks. This is the highest level. There’s no competition, only collaboration. I created a solution to that. Problem solved, successful global company. All I hear over and over is, “We’re tired of being the best secret. We want to be the news in media at a high level to create validity and credibility for our brand short-term and long-term.” It doesn’t matter where you’re located, what you do, if you’re a solopreneur or your company is as big as Allstate. That’s meaningless. My company solves that problem.

You give away a lot of your insights in your wonderful book Epic Business: 30 Secrets to Build Your Business. It’s written by a mutual friend. The foreword is written by Chris Voss, who is the expert, in my opinion, on negotiation from his FBI background. It doesn’t surprise me that you would be friends with someone like that. That’s another example of someone backing up what they’re writing about with their actual expertise. He is not someone who is very open to running a lot of forewords or giving his name to other books. That alone is a huge credibility factor that you’re putting your skillset into action for your own book and that wow factor. If Chris Voss thinks this book is worth writing a foreword to and not a blurb, there clearly is some meat to the bones there. That is another example of what is a negotiation expert talking about that relates to having an epic business. I’m going to make people read that to find that out.

One of the insights in your book is the difference between confidence and arrogance. Especially if people are going on TV, that can be intimidating for even the most confident executives or entrepreneurs. There’s nothing else quite like live TV. Those three minutes can go fast. The robotic cameras come zooming in and out of your face. Your mouth can get dry. Your heart can pound. I’m speaking from experience. You know that you have to have your sound bites ready to go and have short answers. TV is not about on and on and giving somebody something that’s valuable in a short amount of time. I want to ask you. You had my new favorite definition of confidence versus arrogance. Please share how you distinguish the two.

Arrogant people think they’re great at everything. Confident people know they’re exceptionally graded 1, 2 or maybe 3 things. The purpose of my life besides hanging out with my family is to be a connecting superhero for every visionary, abundance, investment, mindset, entrepreneur and share their stories with the world. That’s not 99% of my day when I’m not hanging out with my family. That’s 100% of my day. In terms of connecting people on a global level and getting people at the highest level, there are very few people in the world that are better at it than I am. Everything else is useless to society. Arrogant people think that statement comes off as arrogant. Confident people are attracted to that confidence. That’s all my company is. Confident people are attracted to that confidence. Those people are the ones running the most successful companies on earth. Why? It’s because they’re confident in what they do and they’re not arrogant. They replace their deficiencies by hiring people who are not doing it.

Epic Business: The right mindset attracts the right network and creates the right opportunities.

One of your expertise in addition to simplifying things is you are able to simplify mindset into three core things. For most people the content, the word mindset automatically pushes a lot of people into, “What does that mean? Does that mean I have to control all my thoughts all the time and I can’t do that? People tell me I should think this and then that’s going to happen. It’s not happening. I don’t know what my next steps are. The whole concept is overwhelming to me as an entrepreneur.” You’re like, “No surprise. I’ve simplified it into three things.” Let’s hear what the three things are if you don’t mind, Justin. I’m going to ask you to expound a little bit on what each one means to you. I’ve got them memorized because it’s my new roadmap.

Take it, please because all this other stuff is landing the plane. Let me start with this and then I’ll answer your question. If you have the right mindset, it attracts the right network and creates the right opportunities. I haven’t done outbound sales, funnels or any of that nonsense in years. It’s because I have the right mindset that attracts the right people and they create great opportunities for me. Companies pay my firm but I’m the buyer of only the people I want to hang out with. I don’t sell anything. I don’t even talk about what my company does unless someone asks me. There’s no selling anything. It’s just buying. That’s the background of that.

There are three attributes. When you have these three attributes, you can only be one of two types of people. All I do is hear things and simplify everything. I’ve talked to thousands and thousands of people and my brain simplifies everything. The three attributes are abundance, visionary and investment. Here is what you are if you have those three attributes. One, you’re running a high 6 figure to 10 figure business. You have a stellar business. You see your family or friends whenever you want to. You do what you like to do and what you’re good at or you’re going to be one of those people.

They do not have their revenue profit-wise but you will be because you have those three attributes in your mindset. There’s no, “What do you cost?” There’s no nickel and diming. There’s no scarcity nonsense. What does investment look like? It eliminates 99% of the population. I don’t care about that because the 0.1%, people are like, “That’s not a big number.” I go, “That’s a very big number because there are eight billion people on the planet, so 0.1% of eight billion is eight million.” The eight million are the ones that create the ideas, execute, invest in them, and employ everybody else. By working with those eight million, I’m helping eight billion.

[bctt tweet=”Mindset is abundance, vision and investment.” username=”John_Livesay”]

If you are one of two people kinds of mindsets, you either think the world is a safe place or a scary place. You either think you come from a place of scarcity or abundance. That’s the first curation there. The second part of it is visionary. For some people, that word they think about maybe Martin Luther King or so-and-so. Maybe those are visionaries. I don’t know that I’m a visionary. If you are running your own business and even if you’re working for someone else, it’s so crucial to have a vision for what you want your life and your family’s life to be about.

Without a vision, you’re wandering around. Once we’ve got a definition of who we are, what our attributes are, what our values are, and our characteristics. For me, when I was working on my first book, it was all about integrity, passion and joy. Those were my three things. Every decision I make is through that lens. I was like, “Are the people I’m working for have integrity? I know I do. Am I passionate about this, and are they? Does it bring me or somebody else joy?” If the answer is yes to all three, then that’s a fit. Without it, I don’t have a vision. That’s how I interpret what you’re talking about there.

It’s three different words, yet it’s the same thing. I know why you’re phrasing it like this because you’re a visionary. You’re asking me like this or maybe some people in your audience or the general public but I know you’re a total visionary. I have a future that I see that is my vision and all that does is you bring your present into your future. You can’t envision anything unless you have a vision. If you’re floating around in absentia, then there’s no goal and objective. When you have that clear-cut goal and then know who you are, I’m going to dovetail that with, “I know who I’m not first.” He’s like, “I know who I am but I know who I’m not.” My brain goes, “You wrote who you were not first, didn’t you?” He wrote it all out who he’s not. That led to him being who he is. All of that has to do with having a vision, having a bigger and better future. When you have that, then you create that with your present.

One of my favorite chapters in your book is, “Don’t try to do everything yourself. It’s a recipe for failure.” That is a classic example of, “I am not a tech person. I’m going to invest and hire someone to help me become a master at Ecamm so I can have special effects. I’ll be very frustrated if I try to do that myself because that’s not how my brain works.” Many people feel like, “I have to wear all the hats. I don’t want to spend money on hiring a professional.” They never launched the product. They get overwhelmed. They get to put a stop and there’s no time because they’re trying to do everything.

Epic Business: 30 Secrets to Build Your Business Exponentially and Give You the Freedom to Live the Life You Want!

I also love the use of your word because I know enough about you from reading your work and studying you that no word is casually chosen. When you say it’s a recipe for failure, that word recipe has been thought out for some reason. What’s great about a recipe? If you follow it, it works. Leave one ingredient out, it doesn’t work or the wrong amount of the ingredient. All of that nuance is in a recipe. I thought, “Look at his work and action. He simplified it.” If you look at what you wrote there, it’s a recipe for failure. All the implications that a recipe has, why would anybody ever think of trying to do something that is a complete bias?

It’s complete nonsense. My whole life is recipes and patterns. That’s it. Good recipes have the right ingredients. If it’s not the right ingredient, I don’t deal with that recipe or I outsource it.

I can’t believe our time is up already. It goes fast. I would be remiss if I did not ask your question that you’ve asked as a professional journalist for so many years. A good interviewer listens. Is there any question you wished I would have asked you or that you wish somebody else would ask you that nobody has that you could leave us with the last nugget?

My father died when I was thirteen. He lived long enough. He would tell me all the time, “The cream rises to the top.” It sunk in. I worked with the cream that’s risen to the top or the folks that will make the investment to be at the top. Other than that, it’s a waste of my time because they’re not going to do anything to benefit society.

Justin, what a treat. If someone wants to buy your book, they can go to Amazon. The book is called Epic Business. Your company is BrEpic Communications. If you’re not at the top of the 1%, don’t even bother reaching out.

Thank you for taking care of that for me. I appreciate that.

I’m curating for you because when you’re that clear on who you are and who you work with, I compare it to Disneyland, where they say you have to be this tall to ride the ride. You don’t have to be this tall. If you can’t afford Justin’s communications, you can get 30 of his amazing secrets from his book Epic Business. Thanks again, Justin.

What a real honor. This exceeded my expectations, which were very high. Your style is fantastic. I love it.

Thank you. That’s one of the best compliments ever.

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