Pitch Secrets From Top Investor with Vic Pascucci
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Episode Summary:
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Listen To The Episode Here
Pitch Secrets From Top Investor with Vic Pascucci
Our guest is Vic Pascucci, who is the Managing Partner at Lightbank in Chicago. He’s been a venture capitalist with over nineteen years of professional experience including Fintech investing and he has an amazing background with Fortune 130 companies and early-stage ventures. He’s really big in corporate strategy as general counsel. His specialties are Fintech and consumer. He’s got over $650 million in venture capital in M&A transactions. Welcome to the show, Vic.
It’s great to be here. I appreciate it.
I like to always ask my guests to take us on their own story of origin. Are you from Chicago? Did you dream of being a venture capitalist when you were in high school? How did this happen to you?
I think in high school, I dreamed of being in Chicago. Growing up as a kid in Cleveland, I became infatuated with the city like this although I didn’t get accepted to any colleges around here. Once I started working, I became infatuated with becoming a venture capitalist. Just like everything else, nineteen years later, you have an overnight success. When it comes to my career in venture, I like to tell people when they ask how did I get into venture, “I did it in a completely non-traditional way.” I fought, punched, kicked, kneed, elbowed and scrapped my way into it. I didn’t go to school in the right part of the country. I don’t have the right degree. I didn’t work for the major consulting companies. If you look at most venture capitalists, they have this punched pressed resume of Ivy League, consulting startup, went to the right country clubs, and worked their way up. I’m speaking broad-brush just to make it more exciting, but if you look at most people’s resume in venture, that’s what they look like.
[bctt tweet=”What is your unfair competitive advantage?” username=”John_Livesay”]
I started my career as an attorney, which a lot of venture people do. I started as a trial lawyer. I was trying cases right out of school. This is the early ‘90s to mid-‘90s and I was going to court every day and just was tearing things down. I was a trial lawyer. I would go and beat the hell out of everyone, witnesses, statements, and I’ll just destroy. I’ll put on a bunch of drama in front of a jury, go to win and move on. I noticed all these brilliant people around me that I meet, they were in technology. The way I look at it, they were building things every day. They are building technologies, building companies.
I had a midlife crisis in my mid-twenties, “How do I want to spend my life? Building or destroying?” The only way I knew how to get into venture from that standpoint was to teach myself how to do technology law, teach myself about corporate finance, and start my own law firm that did those types of things. From starting my own law firm with no clients, this is in the late ‘90s, beginning of 2000, so after the first technology crash. I was starting a firm with no clients, focused on technology companies. Building that from no clients, no business, to enough work to keep five lawyers busy. One of the guys I was working my ass off to get his business finally said, “I’m not going to give you my business, but I will give you a job as my first general counsel.”
Up into that point, I was doing a bunch of advising on venture and finance. I have always loved the venture side of things, representing some financiers, representing the State of Illinois for their seed stage investing. Before I knew it, I was out there raising money, managing teams. Once I got inside the “the belly of the beast” on the startup side, I loved it. From there, I progressed from one software company got bought by another. I ended up in Texas where I got a job. I sold the software company, then end up with a job with a Fortune 130 company which was the completely other end of the spectrum, working in this huge 25,000-person company. It was highly regulated with all these processes, completely conservative and conventional. I came in as the young guy that was supposed to represent their CTO, CIO, and CISO.
As their lawyer, what I’d see are deals that come across their desks. They would be an early adopter for desktop virtualization or security or some internet-based business. I just kept forcing them to say, “We should do deals with these companies.” They say, “We are.” I’m like, “No, you’re not. You’re just buying stuff. We need to invest. We’re going to rely on them. They’re going to rely on us. The best way to align is by investing.” They said, “No, we don’t do that here. Shut up. You’ll get fired.” After breaking that ice after a couple of years, I turned around and fast forward a couple of years, I’m managing a $330 million venture fund for them. It’s a top performing fund. We have a bunch of IPOs. We have a bunch of acquisition exits and a really active pipeline. That started it all officially. Throughout the course of those investments, I was able to meet my partners here, Brad Keywell, Eric Lefkofsky, this fund that they had started. They traded some deal flows, traded some pings and deals on sectors, and then a couple of years later when they were ready to bring in someone else to manage and run this fund, it’s how I got here.
Pitch Secrets: People just assume that all teams have great relationships, but that’s not the case.
That is quite a journey. I think that there must have been some skills around storytelling being convincing as a trial lawyer that has helped you on your career path because you obviously had to get other lawyers to join your team when you were starting your own firm and then getting people to engage with the vision of other startups.
Getting them to accept my bullshit, specious legal arguments in front of them, it helps to tell when people are telling a story with passion versus the people are just posing in bullshit. When it comes to entrepreneurs and pitching, there are the big picture things I am looking for and then the micro. The big picture, I’m looking for that compelling visionary that truly believes that they’re doing something bigger with this company. When I say something bigger, “I don’t want to sell more loans. What I’m trying to do is sell for the financial security for families everywhere because their incumbent banks won’t take care of them.” I need people to see something bigger and I need them to communicate it and tell that story in a compelling way.
That storytelling capability, I need to know that they’re exceptional at because they need to be able to inspire people to come work for them because I invest at the earliest stage of startups. I have the seed and Series A. These companies go through amazing ups and downs. They’ll face death and go out of business almost on a monthly basis. Unless you are that inspiring leader that can keep people going in the good times and bad, you’re not going to be able to do that. It starts with how well can you pitch. Not only do they need to be convincing me and their employees and their partners, but they’ve also got to convince the later stage investors. They’re going to be the type of person that can tell a compelling story to them. Get those people to part with their funds and invest in the companies, and give them the understanding that this is an incredibly competitive business on both sides. Both with VCs like myself trying to get deals, but also entrepreneurs pitching venture capitalists.
There are hundreds and thousands of deals we’re looking at. What is it that’s going to help them stand out and are they able to tell that story? Storytelling is a critical part of things. On the more tactical side, what I look for in every pitch and entrepreneurs are actually really good at doing this, they’re actually pretty blatant about it. I want to see an unfair competitive advantage. “Why are you going to win versus everybody else?” Tell me, “Why you? Why this company? Why this team? Why?” Unless they can articulate that, then I know they’re not really going to have what it takes to get through. There are so many deals, so many opportunities, so many people chasing financial services or banks or this and that and the other consumers.
Some of that unfair advantage could be a distribution channel. It could be a technology architecture. It could be the team itself in their relationships. It could be their approach. Something has to be there. I invested in Coinbase back in 2014. Those guys were really clear. Fred Ehrsam was like, “Here’s my competitive advantage. We have the best UI. We have more people. We are the biggest Bitcoin company in the world right now. We have the power law of scale on our side and then here’s our roadmap of how we’re going to take that and expand it.” It was clear. They did have an unfair competitive advantage at that point.
I love that you spelled out what the unfair competitive advantages are because so many people will think, “Is this one or is that not one?” It can be something as basic as a distribution channel. A lot of people have Uber on their phone, maybe they’ll do one other one like Lyft, but they’re probably not going to do a lot of other apps. That’s a distribution channel example. When you talk about the relationships that the team has, I think that’s a really interesting angle to take a look at. A lot of people just assume that all teams have great relationships and that’s not the case. Especially if you’ve got really great advisors who also have great relationships who was just part of your team to not overlook.
Pitch Secrets: I’m getting people to engage with the vision of other startups.
Through that storytelling, are they able to bring on great advisors? Through that storytelling, are they able to keep the relationships they have? We just invested in a company, it hasn’t been announced yet. It’s in the legal tax space, bringing automation to the legal field. This founder, this is the second time he’s doing something in that space. He’s got connections throughout the industry. It’s not exactly what he did before, but similar. His people on his team, they worked with him in the past. Then when we mapped the marketplace as to where his technology fits and where it’s going to go and what is his distribution channels, the people he’s going to rely on are the CMOs, the CTOs, the EVP of sales and distribution. All these were major channel partners that he’s going to rely on to go to market. You map it out, you see it and there’s the unfair competitive advantage.
I love that you paint the picture that once you explain what your unfair competitive advantage is, then here’s the roadmap of how we’re going to use that. It’s the next step of connecting the dots for people to really understand it. Sometimes an unfair competitive advantage can be traction that the competitors don’t have. It could be the technology, but also even if it’s just something that is so complex and needs a lot of SCC requirements around it and you figured out how to do that and that’s a barrier to entry to competitors, any of that is considered an unfair competition.
It can even be your subject matter expertise. There’s a company we invested in that I’m on the board of, Clearcover. It’s championing the concept of incidental insurance. I’ve been in insurance and Fintech for a while and everybody comes in to pitch with, “Incumbents are slow. They’re stupid. They don’t have the technology. It’s a huge market and I’m going to win.” Kyle Nakatsuji, on the other hand, has been in insurance for ten plus years. We walked through the entire regulatory roadmap of how he’s going to get his products approved in each of the 50 states. How he’s going to establish the laws of adjustment expense ratios. How is he going to run the rate combined? What is going to be his underwriting factors? His unfair advantage is one, he’s an awesome entrepreneur. Two, he goes deeper on this space than anybody else out there.
Here’s another important qualitative aspect because at the early stage, it’s truly a qualitative game. You’re betting on the non-tangibles because it’s early. We all think we know where these companies are going to go, but at the end of the day you don’t know how the market’s going to react, competitors, regulations, anything like that. For me, when I’m looking for an entrepreneur, you need to see that level of grit. There’s got to be that hustle, that grind and grit because despite what you read in WIRED and TechCrunch and everything else, startups are not fun and glamour. You’re in the trenches biting it. Are these the type of people that at the first sign of difficulty, are they going to turn? Are they going to give up?
[bctt tweet=”Can you tell a great story when you pitch?” username=”John_Livesay”]
I’m always looking for those people that are hustlers, they’re grinders. Are they going to grind it out no matter what? Are they going to see what’s going on in the market and see what’s going on, make the necessary pivots, and also hold their ground when it’s time to maintain those visions? The entrepreneurs, that it was too easy for them or they have layups or they were spoon fed a bunch of opportunities. They look great on paper but again and again, you can stand back and just watch flame out after flame out. We’ll always bet on those grinders and those hustlers that are able to articulate their unfair competitive advantage and can tell a great story.
Especially for you and your background, that makes a lot of sense. You had to be scrappy and not be spoon-fed to get to where you are so you can appreciate that in other people.
Generally, if something turns off an investor in someone’s background, those are usually the things that turn me on like, “What do you mean you’re waiting tables for three years in Brooklyn?” He was doing that to pay back student loans while he figures out this business plan. I’m like, “I’m good with that. That’s what I want to see.” “What do you mean you took two years off between high school and college?” He was selling Cutco Knives in order to pay the bills to help his mom. It doesn’t have to be about dire straits. We have people like, “Yes, I want to pursue my dream of becoming a musical theater actor in New York. I went after it and I realized after two years, I wasn’t that good at it. I went back, got a part-time job, got my MBA and dropped out of there because I thought this was wrong with financial services. I thought I’d go after this untapped market.”
Let’s change gears a little bit and talk about what’s happening in the blockchain since you said you were one of the early investors in Coinbase. I see a lot of investors who are Angel investors of the Seed round or a Series A saying, “ICOs and blockchain stuff are really not our business model, yet we want to get into it but we don’t know how to make it work.” I’m fascinated that you’ve figured out a methodology. Is it a different criterion? How does that all work for you? You’re typically not getting equity in ICOs, you’re getting tokens.
I watched the first craze and bust happened from 1999 to 2000. Then I watched it happen again in 2008 both as an investor as well as an operator. When I see technology that infatuates me at its most nascent stages, I still go back to the very fundamentals. Blockchain itself stepped away from the technology. Not only is it a new technology that enables both incredible things to happen across lots of different aspects of life, but if you’re going to sell through and around anyone, the regulated industries or to larger enterprises, it’s a completely different way for them to do business. When I’m looking at those teams that are getting into it, I keep going back to those fundamentals. Is this the team that has what it takes to change the way an entire industry operates?
If you think about the biggest enterprise sales that are out there, like when Oracle went after their competitors, when IBM tried to sell this, large enterprise sales are incredibly hard to do. That’s just when you’re changing and swapping out technologies. These companies and these product pioneers and their CTOs and the CIOs, they’re all doing business the same, just with different technologies and supposedly technology is supposed to get some lift efficiency. With blockchain technologies, you’re going to change the entire way they do things. You’re going to take out an entire floor of securities traders and replacing them with smart contracts. You better be the best salesperson, the storyteller in the world to get them to do that. Don’t give me like this bullshit of, “We’ll do a pilot. I’ve got a pilot with everybody and they all paid me fourteen cents for a pilot but I’m in everyone’s innovation lab.”
When are you going to see production? Are they even talking to the people that can put you in a production? My point is the people that are going to the blockchain, that we’re going to bet on, are the ones that understand their industry that they’re going into and have that ability to tell the story that can change the way the whole industry works. Those people are few and far in between. The men and women that are doing that, they’re going to be the next Steve Jobs, the next Bezos, the next Elon Musk, the next Eric Lefkofsky, the next Brad Keywell. They’re going to be those special entrepreneurs that can do the unthinkable. It’s just not going to be like, “I wrote a white paper and here’s my use case. Here are all my coins. I’m going to keep 20% for myself and I’m going to sell the rest out.”
[bctt tweet=”Sometimes, an unfair competitive advantage can be a traction that the competitors don’t have.” username=”John_Livesay”]
To me, that’s not going to do it. That’s not how I’m going to invest. I’m going to invest in the people and the companies. Yes, there could be some tokens but at the end of the day, it’s going to be the people and their businesses that I’m going to invest in. There are some interesting enablers going on out there for companies trying to do better trading of tokens and those types of new technologies. The true ones, they want to change how eCommerce works or change how consumer product goods or assets are tracked or securities are traded or insurance is put together. Those are the ones I’m looking for. What’s the next Coinbase going to be at the enterprise level? Coinbase has announced where they’re going with those types of things. It’s going to be those people like Fred Ehrsam that they knew that industry. That guy knew more about money transferring than anybody out there when talking to him. I was already in a financial services business with bankers and treasury offices that had been doing it for four decades. Fred knew it better than they did. It was awesome and so it was great.
Pitch Secrets: You had to be scrappy and not be spoon-fed to get to where you are.
The real takeaway I think is some people are really good at understanding their industry but they’re bad storytellers or vice versa. They might be a great storyteller but they don’t really have a competitive advantage and they don’t really have the expertise to make you feel like they could execute it. When you meet those teams, that’s why most deals are only funded 1%, you hear 2,500 pitches and fund 25. It’s because of that rare combination. It’s almost like a casting agent looking for the next big movie star. It’s like they’ve got to have that it factor, which is great storytelling and expertise combined. A lot of people who are technology-oriented are not really great storytellers. When you get those skills in one person, it is like this incredible hybrid that comes to life.
That’s a great point and that’s spot on. There are also teams that they know it like, “I’m the product person and this is my BD salesperson and we come together. I know the technology. She knows how to sell and build a team. Together, we’re an awesome combination.”
Which goes to the point of complementary skill sets, not the same skill set. It’s a big takeaway. Any last thoughts on recommendations for someone who is looking for Seed or Series A round in addition to all the great things you’ve said? Any last thoughts about being really be prepared for the Q&A in addition to the pitch or anything like that?
Just do your homework. To me, that speaks volume. If you’re talking to a Seed and Series A person, do they write Seed and Series A checks and what’s their definition of Seed and Series A? Is it the same as yours? Start at the most fundamental level. Are you talking to the right type of investor? Then from there, do they do the investments and the types of sectors or the sector of the industry that you’re in? Can you have the conversation with them? Look at the investments they’ve done. The reality is most investors are going to take pitches that come to them through warm introductions. Very rarely do you come in cold. Every now and then, some people do or even the ones that come through like a friend saying, “Will you please take this pitch?” “Fine. I’m happy to.”
[bctt tweet=”We know where these companies are going to go; but at the end of the day, you don’t know how the market’s going to react.” username=”John_Livesay”]
I do like to help people and talk with them and help even if I’m not going to invest. Those have been some of my best relationships. It’s like, “Do you understand what I’ve invested in? Please don’t come with the pitch on how you’re going to try to take out a company I’m on the board of that I lead umpteen millions of dollars in investments in.” Know that you shouldn’t be pitching me if that’s the story. Do your homework on the investor. Know what they invest in. Know how they invest. Know what their style is and know what their track record is so you can understand if you should be in front of them in the first place.
Since you brought it up, I’m sure that everyone is going, “Don’t let him go without answering this one question.” What do you define Seed Round from and where do you think Series A starts because it’s all blurred these days? Is Seed Round $1 million and under for you? What are your parameters?
At the Seed, I’m going to invest anywhere from $500,000 to $1.5 million and to me Seed Rounds are priced anywhere from a $4 million to maybe an $8 million to $10 million. If it’s going up near $8 million, that’s going to be a special type that has some unbelievable traction. It’s just that they took a while to take some outside capital. We still consider A as a traditional A. It’s $5 million to $12 million raise on an evaluation that somewhere around there, they’re going to give up 20% to 30% of the company.
Pitch Secrets: A lot of people who are technology-oriented are not really good storytellers. So when we get those skills in one person, it is like this incredible hybrid that comes to life.
We’re not the type of firm that’s going to take part in a $40 million Series A investment. It’s just doesn’t make sense. We’re fortunate enough that Lightbank is a top performing venture capital firm, one of the top twelve results. When you measure us against our top decile, it’s because we stayed disciplined in the evaluation and we stayed disciplined in our approach. At the Seed stage, I just want to see people that have done the work and have a model that makes sense. It’s mostly hypothetical and notional at that point because you’re maybe not a marketer who just got the supplications. Show me that you’ve done the work, that you’ve got a reasonable financing plan, a reasonable strategic go-to market, how are you going to get the product market fit, and then how you’re going to get to scale from there. We’re looking for a founder-product fit and then just try to get the product-market fit and then it’s scaling out from there.
Thanks so much for sharing your story, your insights, and most importantly the kinds of people that you’re looking for. Now, we have a roadmap. For our audience, it’s much better prepared on how to tell a story, have your competitive advantage and really know who you’re talking to and do your homework. Thanks again, Vic.
It’s my pleasure.
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Unleash Your Inner Company with John Chisholm
Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments
Episode Summary
Today’s guest on The Successful Pitch is John Chisholm, the author of Unleash Your Inner Company. He has such an impressive background from MIT and Harvard and has coached thousands of entrepreneurs on how to be successful. He shares those secrets with us today. In fact, he said, “Passion is an attitude but perseverance is a behavior.” He does a deep dive into the psychology of growing your mind from the inside out. He really shares what he looks for when he hears a pitch as an investor. I think you’re going to get a lot of value into learning what it takes to reduce the risk by hitting certain milestones and showing an upside potential so that your pitch becomes irresistible. Enjoy the episode.
Listen To The Episode Here
Unleash Your Inner Company with John Chisholm
I am thrilled to have John Chisholm today as my special guest. John has an amazing background. He went to MIT. In fact, he’s now president of the MIT Alumni Association. From there, he went to Harvard. He was one of the early employees at Hewlett-Packard and Silicon Valley. He has an amazing book called Unleash Your Inner Company. He has also founded two companies. He co-founded a third. He sold a fourth company. He’s advised literally thousands of entrepreneurs across five continents. John, welcome to the show.
John, thanks so much for having me.
I have so much respect and insight for what you’re doing. You have such an amazing career and journey. Let’s start with this whole concept of you’ve been both an entrepreneur and an angel investor. Let’s just dive right in. What do you listen for when you hear a pitch?
Unleash Your Inner Company: Use Passion and Perseverance to Build Your Ideal Business
I think it’s helpful to have been an entrepreneur, when you’re both evaluating pitches and trying to be helpful to entrepreneurs, I listen very closely for a real unsatisfied customer need. Until I hear one, it’s hard for me to get very excited or to be very focused on the opportunity. So many entrepreneurs focus on their really cool technology rather than a real customer need. I like to say, I started my first company with a really cool technology for which there was no customer need. It took me six to nine months to let go of that cool technology and swap it in favor of something for which there was a real customer need, namely doing surveys on the internet.
My first company which I founded in 1992 was Decisive Technology which published the first software for automated surveys via email and later via the internet. Start with a real customer need, that way you know that your business will be addressing a real customer need. It’s okay to use your resources, including your technologies if you have some, to suggest real customer needs, but make certain that you’re satisfying one. In the book, I talk about ways to come up with a potentially infinite number of unsatisfied customer needs even just in the areas you’re passionate about and to test them and to confirm that they’re real.
How do you suggest somebody test that the problem is real? Do you have any ideas on that?
Yes. First of all, let me talk about how you come up with unsatisfied customer needs. Start with any product or service in an area that you’re passionate about. For example, you’re passionate about running. One of the products and services we runners use are running shoes. Then ask yourself, what are the limitations of that product or service? I can think of three for my running shoes. Number one, they start to smell after I’ve worn them too many times. Two, if I want to change the shoelaces to match the color of my outfit, it’s a hassle to thread and re-thread them every time, two laces of different colors. Three, the shoes don’t tell me how far I’ve run or how fast I’ve run and they should know that, shouldn’t they? Those are three possible customer needs.
I have to confirm that they’re real and unsatisfied. Real means that other people besides just me have the need that means talking to people, going online seeing if other people seem to have the need, doing interviews. Also, I have to confirm that they’re unsatisfied, which means that another product or service isn’t already satisfying them. That means seeing what products and services are currently available, going to shoe stores. If I can satisfy myself that they are real and unsatisfied, great. That’s an opportunity for me to come up with a possible solution to that need. Let’s say, I can’t find anyone who addresses the problem of changing shoelaces easily to match the color of my outfit. That’s an opportunity to be creative and maybe I can think of a way to let a set of shoelaces to snap on or off. For the other needs, the shoes that smell and the shoes that don’t tell me how far or fast I’ve run, there are obviously solutions for those footpads and sprays and so forth.
Then ask yourself, what are the limitations of those solutions? Sprays have to be done every day. Footpads have to be changed frequently. What if there were a way to go for weeks or months without having to use the spray or change the footpads? That would have some advantages over the current product. Now, I have a new potential customer need that is the leftover need from the original need that’s not fully satisfied by the product or service currently available. Similarly, for the shoes that don’t tell me how far or fast I’ve run, there are solutions to those. There are Fitbits, there are odometers and so forth that you can wear while you’re running, but those I have to put on and take off. What if there was a way to have it built into the shoes so that I didn’t have to worry about putting it on or taking it off? Then that’s another potential need.
You can see I started out with a single product or service in an area that I’m passionate about. It blossoms into a tree of potential unsatisfied customer needs that I can consider evaluating. That’s how you can get a potentially infinite number of unsatisfied customer needs from even just one product or service in an area that you’re passionate about.
Unleash Your Inner Company: Come up with unsatisfied customer needs.
That’s so helpful. I’m always telling everybody: when you pitch, paint a picture. You just did that for us, John. You talked about it blossoming into a tree and you showed us how each branch leads to another branch by this logical way of exploring what the problem is. You’re really getting into the head of a potential customer’s problem that they may not have even thought about. “Yeah, my shoes smell.” They accept it. If you can really figure out a way to prevent that, they would love it. That’s really helpful.
John, sometimes I hear from budding entrepreneurs, “What if my areas that I’m passionate about aren’t very business oriented?” Let’s say I’m passionate about long hot baths, kittens and comic books. None of these sound very businesslike, do they? But even in these areas, there are potentially an infinite number of unsatisfied customer needs.
Warm hot baths. People like to read, listen to music, talk on the phone when they’re in the tub. How about a floating waterproof case for my iPad or iPhone that lets me do those things when I’m in the tub? Kittens. They lose a lot of their cuddliness when they grow up to be cats, don’t they? What about a diet or genetic therapy that allowed a kitten to stay a kitten its entire life? There would be a lot of demand for that, wouldn’t there? Comic books. The hugely successful and popular tradeshow Comic Con in San Diego attracts about 150,000 people. Hugely profitable, people sign up, attend dressed up as their favorite comic book character. No matter what your passion is, even if they don’t seem very businesslike, like those three, there will be unsatisfied customer needs in those areas. You just need to find them.
I love that. I’ve actually been to Comic Con. Talk about finding people who are passionate. This enthusiasm, whether it’s somebody who rides a Harley and they get that tattooed or the Nike people that get the swish tattooed. If you’re that passionate and there’s a whole other group of people that are equally passionate about what you’re doing, that’s great advice, is to focus on solving that problem and you’ll solve other people’s problems. In your book John, you talk about using passion and perseverance as a positive feedback loop, which is just the very beginning of Unleash Your Inner Company. I would love to have you talk about, how we can get a positive feedback loop going in our own head?
What do we mean by positive feedback loop? I mean people or things that reinforce each other. Passion is an attitude, perseverance is a behavior. In many aspects of our lives, our attitudes and behaviors reinforce each other. If I deeply love an activity, you know how the hours can go by like minutes when I’m engaged in that activity. It’s easy to persevere in those circumstances. That’s an example of passion driving perseverance. Similarly, if I just stick with an activity long enough so I start to get good at it and then get better at it and then start to like it and then start to love it, that’s an example of perseverance driving passion.
If you can think of any aspect of your life where you’ve experienced this positive feedback between passion and perseverance, that’s probably a really good area to consider starting a new business. It could be in any realm of life. It could be in family, sports, some area of scholarship, travel. You name it.
[Tweet “Unleash Your Inner Company: Passion is an attitude, perseverance is a behavior.”]
You talk about the psychology of entrepreneurship, and certainly passion and perseverance is a big part of that. Is there anything else that you want to share with us about the importance of the psychology of entrepreneurship?
I have an entire chapter in the book called Growing Your Mind from the Inside Out. It’s really hard to start a business. You’ll run up against lots of obstacles. I talk about many of the obstacles I’ve run up against in the last 25 years starting businesses. I’ve had to lay off people, cut back salaries, factor receivables so I had enough cash to make payroll. At one point I reduced my salary to minimum wage. We had to move to smaller more modest offices. All of these are hard and humbling steps to take. You have to be very deliberate about building your own self confidence to be successful as an entrepreneur in my experience, or at least it’s helpful to do so.
In this chapter, Growing Your Mind from the Inside Out, I offer a number of techniques. One of the techniques I offer is this: If there is some aspect of yourself that you genuinely can’t change, find a way to view it as an asset. I use myself as an example. When I was in my early 30’s, I accepted the fact that I’m gay. Most people wouldn’t view that as an asset, at least from a business standpoint. I disagree. For me, it’s been an asset for at least five different reasons.
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One, when you are growing up gay, you know unambiguously with absolute certainty that at least some of the world’s routine assumptions aren’t wrong. People routinely assume that guys are attracted to girls and vice versa. You know that it’s not universally correct. I think growing up gay has helped me not necessarily accept the status quo, think outside the box. That’s made me a better entrepreneur and executive. Two, it wasn’t socially acceptable to be openly gay when I was growing up and so at least some of the energy I might’ve put into dating, I put into sports, studying and career instead. 30 years later, I’m hugely enjoying the benefit of that early investment. Maybe I wouldn’t have gone to MIT if I hadn’t been gay.
Three, I’m not a minority in any sense that I can think of other than being gay, so it has sensitized me to what it’s like to be a minority. Four, when people see that I’m not trying to hide my sexual orientation, they can see I’m being honest with them and that helps build trust between us. Five, I think it further conveys that I have strength and reserve if I can be open about the fact that I’m gay.
Similarly, if there’s some aspect of yourself that you genuinely can’t change, find a way to view it as an asset. Set the bar very high. Don’t use this as an excuse to accept some aspect of yourself that you can change and would like to change. If you genuinely can’t change it, if you can find a way to view it as an asset, it’ll be hugely empowering for you as it was for me. That aspect of yourself will become one of your strengths.
A few years ago, I was telling this exact same story to a group of undergraduates in Guatemala in an auditorium. About half way back in the auditorium, a young man was sitting. As I spoke, he slowly made a fist and gently moved it up to his chest and pressed it against his chest. At first I thought it was a small gesture of agreement or support for what I was saying. Then, when I looked again, I could see he wasn’t making a fist at all. His hand had no fingers on it. I imagine he was saying, “This I cannot change. This is my strength.”
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How moving. I love what you said so much. I personally relate to it as I’m also gay. I know that before I was comfortable talking about that, it was always a secret that you’re keeping. In order for anybody to trust you, I’m a big believer that before anybody wants to work with you, hire you, invest in you, they have to trust you. The best way to be trustworthy is to be authentically who you are, because otherwise people feel like you’re hiding something and they can’t put their finger on it. If you’re comfortable with who you are, more times out of not then other people are too. They pick up your energy, whether you like yourself or not. Thank you for sharing that so much. It’s so great.
One of the questions I always get asked by people I’m helping with their pitch is, “Is this the right time for me to be looking for money? Do I have to have a lot of traction or can I get funded with just an idea and a minimum viable product?” What are your thoughts on that?
Unleash Your Inner Company: I definitely think there are right times in a startup’s life to raise money.
I definitely think there are right times in a startup’s life to raise money. They’re not when you’re running out of cash. Then you have no credibility or negotiating leverage at all. They’re not even when you’re about to run out of money. I would say that the right times are when you either, A) significantly in reduced risk or B) significantly increase your upside potential as perceived by the investor. Let me say a word or two about both of those.
First of all, significantly reduced risk as perceived by the investor. What do I mean by that? Each time your company reaches a milestone, such as a positive cash flow of revenue, your first customer, your first working prototype, each time you reach one of those milestones, you have eliminated a risk in the business. If you have positive cash flow, you’ve eliminated the risk that you can get revenue. If you have revenue, you’ve eliminated the risk that you can get customers. If you have customers, you’ve eliminated the risk that the market will accept your product. If your market is accepting the product, that eliminates the risk that your prototype works, and so forth. Each time you can reach one of those milestones you have significantly eliminated or reduced a risk to the investor.
If you’re about to achieve one of those milestones, that’s a particularly good time to raise money, both before and after. Let’s say you’re very confident that you’ll achieve one those milestones in the next 60 to 90 days, schedule a time to visit the investor. Layout your value-add, the customer need that you satisfy, your solution, your team, your track record and so forth. Say to them that in the next 60 to 90 days, you will achieve this milestone. Then, ask if you can come back 60 to 90 days later after you’ve done so. Then go ahead, achieve that milestone, go back and talk to the investor again. That starts building your credibility with the investor even before they become an investor.
I love that. You said two things that I really want people to have as a big take away. One, don’t wait until you’re running out of money to seek money because you’re desperate. Just like in dating, nobody wants to date someone who’s “desperate.” What you just said here is just so important. Investors invest in who you are, your integrity and how you think. John just laid out for you step by step what to do, to prove that you have integrity, that you do what you say you’re going to do because you have thought through something. That your word means something because then they know if they invest in you going forward and you say you’re going to deliver a milestone, odds are you will because you’ve already proven it to them.
Beautiful, John. Thank you so much. They may or may not invest in that round but they’ll remember, “Those were the guys who said that they were going to do X and who did X.” You’ve made a positive impression, they could well be investors on the subsequent round. That’s one set of times when it is a good time to raise money, in my experience. A second set of times are the converse of reducing risk, which is right after you increase upside potential.
One of the things I talk about in the book, Unleash Your Inner Company, is the bowling pin model. Think of the growth of your business over the next three to five years as a series of bowling pins. You knock down the first bowling pin, that bowling pin helps you knock down the next bowling pin, the next, and next and so forth. Each of the bowling pins is a customer or market opportunity. It could be a city. It could be a vertical market.
Let’s say you’re located in San Francisco. Your first bowling pin might be the region of San Francisco, where you live. Your next bowling pin might be the city of San Francisco. Then the next bowling pin might be Oakland, which is a nearby city, then Sacramento, then San Jose, then Los Angeles. Establishing a market presence and awareness and customer base in each of those cities will help you further penetrate the next city. These bowling pins could be vertical markets instead. If you’re in IT, maybe it’s accounting as an application for your software. Maybe it’s supply chain management, maybe it’s customer relationship management and so forth. You could grow that way.
Unleash Your Inner Company: What builds confidence in the investor’s mind that your company has upside potential is when it’s really credible.
What builds confidence in the investor’s mind that your company has upside potential is when it’s really credible, that by knocking down one bowling pin, it will indeed help you knock down the next bowling pin, the next and so forth. One way that you can help build that credibility is by showing that you’ve knocked down one bowling pin and it is helping you already start to knock down the next bowling pin. I’ve got a set of customers in one vertical market, maybe the markets are like retail, maybe they’re B2B customers in retail financial services, telecom and so forth. Maybe your initial set of customers is in financial services and you are expanding from that base into retail or into telecom or vice versa. The first few customers that you get in the telecom space or whatever the next bowling pin is, that builds the credibility that it really is true that by knocking down one bowling pin you can knock down many bowling pins.
Again, another really good time to raise money right before and after, when you’re very confident that the first customer or cluster of customers in the adjacent vertical market or whatever the market is will be knocked down. Let your potential investors know that you’ll be achieving that within 60 to 90 days. Go out and do it, then come back to them 60 to 90 days later and show them that you’ve done it. This technique is like a two-edge sword. If you succeed in doing what you set out to do and said you’re going to do, it is a huge win. If you fall significantly short of doing what you said you were going to do, that’s a big negative. You want to be very confident that you are going to achieve whatever it is you’re going to achieve in the next 60 to 90 days. If you need to wait a little bit longer to make absolutely certain that you’re going to do it, that is something you might well consider. All of this raises the question, how would I fund my business in the interim until I’m at a point to raise money?
In the book, I laid out three different ways to fund your business in the interim until you’re at a point where you can attract outside investment. They are, number one, living frugally yourself. In the book, I offered the example of my friend, Nick Winter, a successful entrepreneur here in San Francisco, who has reduced his physical possessions to exactly 99 things. He has one laptop, one cellphone, two pairs of jeans, one wedding ring and so forth. My list on 99 things is in the book. This is an extreme case of minimalist living, which seems to me is an emerging trend.
I know that I have experienced downsizing from a big spacious three-story town house in Menlo Park to a compact town house in the town of San Francisco seven years ago. When I did, I had a whole new sense of freedom from having to take care of day to day maintenance on my house. When I clean out a closet or my kitchen and free up space in the closets, I have a new set of freedom and spaciousness. I haven’t gone to the extreme that Nick has but I can certainly empathize with how simplifying your life and minimalist living frees up mindshare and money to invest in your business. In the book, I talk about how skipping Starbucks can save you $1,250 a year, which is enough to buy a very nice coffee machine with gourmet coffee for several employees for the first few months that you’re in business. Living frugally is one technique, and freeing up mind share, resources and cash to invest in your business.
Two is providing services. If there is some skill that you are uniquely skilled at and expert at, then potentially you can offer those services as a way to generate revenue to fund your business. For my second company, which was in enterprise feedback management, which means automating the customer feedback and surveys for corporations, we had learned about that field from my first company, Decisive. The second company was called CustomerSat, the website is still CustomerSat.com. We had early experience in doing surveys. For my second company, we used the product of my first company to do large scale surveys for corporations and used the earnings that we made from those services to fund the development of our platform for the second company.
Unleash Your Inner Company: Use whatever skills you have to generate cash to fund the development of your new technology.
You can do the same. Use whatever skills you have to generate cash to fund the development of your new technology. If the skills that you’re providing or the services you’re providing relate to the new business, so much the better. In fact, that’s the ideal case because there you’re not only generating funds, but you’re building customer relationships, you’re learning about customer requirements and all of that. You can fold it into the new company that you’re starting.
The third way is friends and family. If your friends and family see that you’re living frugally, see that you’re serious enough about your venture to provide services to fund it, then that will show them how serious you are about that new venture and make them receptive to consider investing in your new venture or lending to you for your new venture. Those are three techniques that you could use before you reach the point where you’re ready to either get crowd funding, angel investing or approach a venture capital firm.
That’s so helpful. Live frugally so that investors feel like you’re going to be good stewards of their money. Provide a service as a way to generate additional revenue for yourself in the interim. Especially if, let’s say, you’re really great at tech and that’s what you’re bringing to your start up, then you could probably get hired as a tech consultant. Those people that are hiring you could even become customers. I always like to say, if you really hit the jackpot, you come up with a startup idea that a customer becomes an investor because they love what you’re doing so much. Have you ever seen that or experienced that yourself, John?
Absolutely. The company I co-founded two and a half years ago, Pyze.com, their largest investor came to them directly through one of their customers. Incidentally,if any of your listeners are developing mobile apps, they should check out Pyze.com because the applet gives their mobile app a ton of customer intelligence, free of charge in the basic version of the product.
That’s great. Unleash Your Inner Company has received over 85 five star reviews on Amazon, soon to be 86 when I get on there. How did you come up with the name of your book? I’m always interested in that story of origin.
The catalyst for writing the book was a TED Talk. After I sold my last company in 2009, I was invited to talk to young entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley. I started out with a 30-minute talk and then a 90-minute talk, then a half-day workshop, and a full-day workshop. Then I was invited to give a TEDx Talk, which meant cutting it back to eighteen minutes. I had a full day of material. I had to figure out what was the most important for the eighteen minutes. That process of deciding what was most important and distilling the most important parts to eighteen minutes was so clarifying. I realized for the first time after I’ve done that I could turn this into a book. That TED Talk is a TEDxUFM, University of San Francisco Marroquin in Guatemala.
That was 2011, I already had a great deal of material to work with. Originally, the name of the talk was Release Your Inner Company but then I changed it to Unleash Your Inner Company because that seemed more powerful. I spent about a day a week in 2011, two days a week 2012. It was a full time activity by 2014. I finally submitted the book to my publisher in 2015. It was five years in the making. A labor of love. Probably on average about a half time activity over that five years. The book came out in October 2015. It’s now been out for almost a year and a half.
What’s the best way for people to follow you? Obviously, we’re going to put the link to buy Unleash Your Inner Company on Amazon. You have a wonderful website called JohnChisholmVentures.com. Your Twitter handle is just your name?
It’s @johndchisholm. The website for the book is www.UnleashYourInnerCompany.com. The website for my consultancy in angel investing practice is www.JohnChisholmVentures.com.
John, I can’t thank you enough for sharing your wisdom, your insight, your passion and your expertise on how we can all learn to unleash our inner company and make it happen with the passion and perseverance that you’ve clearly shown and continue to show in the way that you live your life.
John, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.
My pleasure.
Links Mentioned
- J Robinett Enterprises
- John Livesay Funding Strategist
- Unleash Your Inner Company – book
- CustomerSat.com
- Pyze.com
- Unleash Your Inner Company – book on Amazon
- JohnChisholmVentures.com
- John Chisholm TEDxUFM
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Get Interview Connections with Jessica Rhodes
Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments
Episode Summary
Today’s guest on The Successful Pitch is Jessica Rhodes who is the founder of Interview Connections. She’s an entrepreneur that found a niche of helping people get booked on podcasts as a guest. She also helps podcast hosts find the best guest. She talks about how she figured out that that was what she was really passionate about. When she had her why, she took off. People really know that they can trust Jessica to find them the right guest, very similar to how investors trust Judy Robinett and I to find them the right startups to put in front of them to hear a good pitch.
Jessica has great insights today on what it takes to be a successful entrepreneur, how to get someone to pitch you in the right way. Most importantly, the catalyst connector that she is, talks about the chemistry that is so important in matching up people. Whether it’s getting somebody on the right show or in the case of a startup, getting them in the right room with the right investor.
Listen To The Episode Here
Get Interview Connections with Jessica Rhodes
Hello. Welcome to The Successful Pitch. Today’s guest is Jessica Rhodes, who is the founder and CEO of Interview Connections, the premier guest booking agency for podcasters and guest experts. She literally is the person that gets me on this amazing podcast. She’s an entrepreneur herself. I wanted to have her on because she knows how to rock the podcast from both sides of the mic. I have found a lot of startups who can get themselves on a podcast, get tremendous social proof for investors that what they’re doing is newsworthy and interesting.
Jessica is also the host of Interview Connections TV where each week she helps her viewers rock that podcast, as I’ve mentioned. She host three podcasts herself, Rhodes to Success, The Podcast Producers and The Parenting Rhodes. She was selected by Apple as a How to Podcast show in iTunes, and has a whole syllabus for a course about podcasting from Western University in Ontario. Jessica, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me, John. I’m so excited to be here.
You are the expert on podcasting and entrepreneurship in particular. You grew up in a family of entrepreneurs. I want to hear how you became you, from a standpoint of how did you decide what problem you were going to solve and decide that podcasting and getting people on shows was the answer.
My dad is an entrepreneur. It’s in my blood in a way. When my husband and I started a family and I was pregnant with our first child, I was very committed to leaving my job and being a stay-at-home mom. My husband, being a nonprofit, one nonprofit income was not enough to support a whole family. I was talking with my parents who are both really supportive of me being that home mom. My dad said, “Why don’t you start a virtual assistant business and you could work from a home office, create your own schedule.” I really had no idea what that entailed. I didn’t know anything about the online business world. I was working in nonprofit, running a door-to-door field campus. I barely knew what Twitter was. Getting into online marketing and podcasting, this was all a whole new world.
I started as my dad’s virtual assistant and I was doing a lot of different tasks.
My dad said, “Listen,” because he was so supportive of me wanting to be a stay-at-home mom, “I’ll help you.” He has written a lot of books about business. He has several businesses. He’s a business coach. He said, “Read my books. I’ll be your first client.” I started as his virtual assistant and I was doing a lot of different tasks. I was doing his Pinterest marketing, creating infographics, client support work, general VA work. Then, in about April 2013, he said, “Why don’t you start getting me on podcasts? When I get interviewed, it’s a great way for me to get exposure to new people, connect with new followers and fans.” I said, “Sure.” I started just researching for business podcasts and really just figured it out as I went. He started referring a couple of his friends to work with me as well. As I was pitching podcasters, as I was making these connections, I started having hosts ask me about what I did.
I wasn’t really thinking like an entrepreneur at that point because my dad was basically my only client. I had a couple other VA clients, but I really felt like I got an at-home job. I didn’t think about myself as this authority figure and this expert. I was just doing something and somebody was paying me to do it. I started to get this light bulb where I wanted to make more money in my business. I wanted to be more efficient with my time because my son was a little baby, and he was starting to nap less. I’m like, “If I’m going to make any money, I need to change something.”
I talked with my dad. I realized that out of all the VA tasks that I was doing, booking podcast interviews was something that people were really interested in. I was getting a lot of interest and it was something that I enjoyed a lot too. He helped me figure out how to niche down and start InterviewConnections.com and have my main service be podcast interviews, and booking podcast interviews, finding podcast guests, and eventually also getting people on shows.
What you said there about niching down is something I really want to dive into, because I work with clients all the time and I tell them, “When you’re going to pitch an investor for funding …” One investor said to me, “Don’t try to boil the ocean. Start with a cup of water.” People forget that Amazon just sold books. When you are a specialist and have one thing that you do really well better than anybody else, then you can expand into other things, that really separates you from everybody else and all the other, at that time, VAs. You’re the specialist in getting people on podcasts. Your network becomes really valuable because you know how to do it.
Let me do a little exercise with you because I’m fascinated to hear your answers on this, as it relates to you as an entrepreneur. One of the things that investors will often ask people pitching them for money is, what’s the why behind your why? In other words, why are you so passionate about helping people who need to get on podcasts do this? It’s going to be more than just making money for your family because there’s a passion there. Can you tell us a little bit about what’s your why behind the why?
The why behind the why. The main reason, the why behind the why, I started to figure out back when I was niching down from being a general VA into podcast interviews, when my dad asked me, “Okay, out of all these tasks that you’re doing, what do you enjoy the most? What’s the most profitable? What’s in highest demand?” The reason I said I enjoy the podcast booking the most is because I’m bringing people together, like I am a connector. Some people call me a matchmaker for podcasters and guests. I absolutely love seeing the relationships that come out of an introduction that me or my team made. It’s so, so fun to watch.
I think it was in Chicago for Podcast Movement, I brought clients out to dinner. Two of my clients, they didn’t know each other before then, but they both came out to the client dinner. They are now accountability partners. Every Monday, they’re talking and it was just so great. I just love that. They are now such good friends and helping each other. That’s just one example of relationships and friendships that start because of how I brought people together. That’s really my big why. I’m sure there’s ways that I could be making more money or other businesses that I’m more profitable or something or easier, maybe not as labor intensive. John, I love bringing people together. I’m an extrovert too. I like to talk a lot. I’m pretty social. I love this business.
It comes across in your voice and it comes across the way you treat your clients, since I’m one, I know firsthand. I can’t emphasize that enough to everybody listening to this, how important it is that your personal passion come through when you’re pitching. Let’s give an example of that. Before we jump into that, I want to talk about what you’ve done for me personally, which is you’ve gotten me on some amazing podcasts as a guest from EOFire to even introducing me to someone who hosts a podcast about 3D printing. While you said, “You’re not the right guest for that podcast, she also happens to write articles for Inc Magazine and is interested in interviewing you.” I almost fell off my chair. Talk about relationships.
Now, I have a quote from Inc Magazine calling me The Pitch Whisper, which I ended up putting on my cover of my book. I’ve become great friends with her. The relationships, the way I see you, Jessica, because I’m all about helping people craft a tagline, something that makes you memorable, like if I’m The Pitch Whisper, you’re the Catalyst for Connections. You bring your special sauce, your chemistry. You know whose personality is going to click with who. Who’s going to be a good guest? Who’s going to be a good host? I think that little alliteration, Catalyst for Connection, takes it to another level of, “Oh, you have the magic alchemy to make that magic chemistry that happens between people, whether they’re dating or just really liking each other as friends and business come to life.” That’s really your secret sauce from my observation and experience.
I would definitely agree with that because it’s hard to explain to people. Obviously I get asked by potential clients or new clients, “How do you find the shows? How do you know they’re a good fit? How big is the audience?” I’m like, “I don’t know how big the audience is. I don’t know these certain things, but I know. I’m the connection catalyst.” I can tell when I look through their website, when I listen to the show, when I read their About section, I learn about the host. I can tune in and know pretty easily if two people are going to be a good match for each other in an interview or as friends or what have you.
That’s really what it’s all about when you’re pitching an investor, is you have to have that chemistry with them because they’re not just giving you money. They’re becoming a part of your culture and either it’s a good fit or not. That is so key to be able to tell upfront. Let’s talk about your expertise in pitching people to get them on podcasts and why it’s so important to have somebody else pitch you as opposed to you pitching yourself?
When you have somebody pitch you, when you have a booking agent who is representing you, it shows that you are at a certain level of success.
Number one, having somebody else pitch you is just good positioning. A lot of entrepreneurs forget that. They say, “I know I could do this pitching myself.” Of course you could, this is not rocket science. I’ll be the first to admit. It does not require a super advanced degree to be doing this. You need some persistence, some tenacity and some sales skills. Of course, you can do it yourself but it’s not worth your time. When you have somebody pitch you, when you have a booking agent who is representing you, it shows that you are at a certain level of success. If you are running a business and you’re spending time researching for shows, writing pitches, doing follow ups, that shows me that you’re not very busy in your business, which means you’re not very successful. People want to interview and be associated with people that are successful. It’s good positioning. Also, it’s hard to say what’s so great about yourself. It’s good to have a booking agent.
When I have a conversation with a new client, I say, “Tell me about yourself. Tell me about your story. What are you an expert in?” I hear things, just like you can plot taglines in people, John. You can see what makes them unique. I do that with my clients too. They’ll say something about their story. I’m like, “Oh, that’s something that a podcaster is going to be super interested in.” I can hear and know what is going to make them unique, because we book 400 interviews a month at Interview Connections. I know what pitches and what kinds of stories and guests podcasters want and which kinds of guests podcasters are like, “Okay, I’ve had enough of that already.” We bring this level of expertise to what podcasters actually want. Also, the connections too. We are already connected with thousands of podcasters that know us and trust us. When you’re doing it yourself, you don’t have all those connections.
I love what you said right there about knowing and trusting because that is what people have in the back of their head when they’re hearing any kind of pitch, a pitch to get somebody on the podcast, a pitch to fund your startup. The first one is, do I trust you? That’s a gut thing. Then it goes to the heart, which is, do I like you? Then it’s, do I know you and trust you to bring me good people?
That’s what I do in Crack the Funding Code with Judy Robinett, is we bring good people to the investors and they trust us. In this case, you are the trusted person that vets the guests. You are not going to put somebody on the show that’s not ready for that level of expertise to make sure that they are a good guests and give the audience some great takeaways and all that good stuff that makes for a great guest.
Let’s talk about the importance of getting on a podcast, regardless of the size of who’s listening. You alluded to it at the beginning there about social proof. Just like you said, if you have a booker booking you, it shows you’re successful. Getting on a podcast, what does that do for your credibility? Do you think in the world as social proof? How is it tying with social media? All that good stuff.
There’s a lot of benefits to being on a podcast. Number one, what people don’t talk about a whole lot, I just did a video on this. There’s a huge benefit for your SEO, for your search engine optimization. When you’re on a podcast, most likely you’re having a backlink back to your website. When you’re on a podcast, they’re putting your website link on their show note’s page. If you’re getting interviewed consistently, you’re continuing to get more links back to your website. That’s what’s going to bring you higher up in the search results. Regardless of how big the audience is to that podcast, you’re getting higher up in the search results.
Corey Coates and I just talked about this on my podcast, the episode that just came out today, about show notes. A lot more people prefer to read and will find your blog post to your show notes than will listen to your podcast. It’s great to have your link in the show notes and be on a podcast because it’s kind of a double whammy. You’re getting interviewed. People listening to the podcast hear you. But then you’re also in this blog post on the show notes page. My most viewed post on my blog website has 1.7000 views but only 200 downloads on the episode, on the podcast. A lot of people went through and read the content, but a small fraction of them actually wanted to hear the episode. That was a little bit of a tension.
People consume content the way they want. Some people don’t have time to read and they’d rather listen to it in the car or at the gym, and some people say, “I’d just rather scan the article for what I need from it not take the whole twenty minutes to listen.”
My point is, it’s repurposing content. You’re hitting two birds with one stone. You’re being on a podcast, but you’re also getting this content about your expertise is being written up in a blog post as well. The other thing is, a lot of the success stories and the ROI that happens with podcast interviews, it’s not because 200 people joined your email list the day your show came out. It’s because one person, two people, three people reached out to you and came to your live event or purchased your book, and then became a client. You don’t really need a huge audience to see results. You just need to be in front of the right audience.
I have a great story, John, that I would love to share, if we have a minute. Yann Ilunga hosts the podcast 360 Entrepreneur. He has some very complementary topics. He did the Podcast Success Summit. I had him on my podcast for an interview back in May. He gave me chance to plug his Success Summit and he was selling tickets for like $97. I think the idea was the Summit, you see it all free for a day and then you can pay a $100 to get the whole thing downloaded. Within 48 hours after his interview on my show went live, he sold five tickets at a $100 each. He made $500 in less than, I think it was like between 50 and 75 downloads at the time. Five people out of an audience of say 60 people. He didn’t need be to have an audience of 10,000 downloads. Because he was in front of the right audience, he had five people take action, and he made $500 for that 30 minutes he was on my show. I would say that was worth his time.
I love it. That’s a good ROI. That’s for sure. Let’s shift gears a little bit. Because you have such an expertise in virtual assistance, a lot of startups are looking for a virtual assistant on a part time basis to help them grow their business, where they can’t afford somebody full-time. What advise do you have for someone who’s an entrepreneur of when should they get a virtual assistant? How much should they pay them? What should they give them to do?
Virtual assistants, otherwise I call them Vas, are very, very helpful because there’s a lot of tasks in your business that are not worth your time, but you don’t necessarily want to take on a full time W2 employee in your business. There’s this amazing movement in this country where people are very entrepreneurial, people are starting their own businesses. A lot of people are starting virtual assistant businesses. Where they’re either doing it full-time as a full-blown business or they’re taking on clients on the side, managing social media accounts, creating graphics while being a home-based stay-at-home mom. The first thing you want to do, when you think you need a virtual assistant, you probably do. It’s like if you’re thirsty, you probably should have been drinking already.
It’s too late. Yes, you’re already dehydrated.
If you’re feeling like, “I think I’m busy. I think I need a virtual assistant. I think I need some help,” you do.
If you’re feeling like, “I think I’m busy. I think I need a virtual assistant. I think I need some help,” you do. The next thing you need to do is, before you start putting out the word, “I need a VA,” you need to know what tasks you need done. I’ll give you a quick tip, something that I did. To write down a list of everything you do takes a lot of time. In addition, you’re doing your work, you’re also are writing it down. I use the voice memo app on my phone. For two days, I said everything that I did. Literally turned on the voice memo app, checked email, dealt with this billing issue. I just did that. Then I sent that audio recording to Rev.com and they transcribed it for a dollar a minute. I probably paid $3 to transcribe it. Then, I send that to Kate, who is now my executive assistant. When we are talking, I said, “Kate, this is everything I do. Can you help me with this?” She goes, “Yes, I can take all of that off your plate.”
Depending on what you need done, you probably want to work with somebody who has experience as a virtual assistant because while you may pay a virtual assistant with experience more per hour than you would somebody who is just getting started as a freelancer, the person who’s just getting started as a freelancer, you’re going to pay a lot more in your time telling them what do to, telling them how everything works.
There’s the gold right there. Jessica just gave it to you everybody. Pay somebody what their worth. If they can do something in half an hour for twice the price versus somebody for half the price that takes two hours. You come out ahead and you’re more productive, which is the whole point, yes.
I just definitely recommend people to find a virtual assistant by way of referral, somebody that can say, “Hey, I know this person is good. I’ve work with them.” Most of my business mistakes come from hiring virtual assistants or people that weren’t quite right, because you can definitely waste time and money by bringing somebody on your team who’s not a good fit. That’s also stressful, having to deal with that. Sticking with referrals is sure fire, it’s better.
That’s one of the key things startups have to do, is create a great team, and that’s one of the key factors that investors look at when they decide which startup to fund. Who’s on the team? How well do they get it long? All that stuff. If you’re going to use that same criteria for finding a tech person or somebody for your advisory board, referrals and warm introductions are everything. You need a warm introduction to get a virtual assistant. You need a warm introduction to get in front of the right investor. It just continues and continues.
Let’s go back to you being such a catalyst connection expert. What tips do you have for people who are trying to find someone to join their advisory board, trying to figure out if this investor is the right person for their startup, or if this VA, virtual assistant, is that right person. Do you have any tips on how to measure that chemistry besides just start from a referral, that helps a lot. Is there something else that you look for in people’s characteristics?
It’s such a good question and it’s so hard too when it’s a virtual working relationship because you can’t be in the same room with them. For me, the judgment of that chemistry starts from the moment you interact with them. Whether it’s them responding to a post about you looking for somebody or if it’s you reaching out to them via Upwork. The moment you guys first start connecting, how fast do they respond to your emails? How did they write their emails? Are they professional? How did they treat you as their client? How friendly are they? Some people are super buttoned up and they don’t want to chitchat or anything. I know for me, I need somebody that’s going to be friendly because I’m super talkative. If I have somebody that only wants to do business and nothing else, it will probably be too awkward. I need somebody who’s going to be responsive. You have to know your personality and what would work well within your team dynamic.
It is like the million-dollar question, John. You have to be listening to your gut the entire time. You know that old tip, hire slow, fire fast. It really, really is true. You don’t want to make a decision too fast. Having conversations, getting on Skype, Skype video, just getting to know them. As you’re having a conversation, again, listen to your gut. Do you think this is a good fit? For a virtual assistant and somebody that you’re thinking about working with you, don’t just say, “Great, we’re working together and indefinitely.” Start with the project. Say, “Okay, I’ll have you start by doing this.” Have there be an endpoint. Then if they do a couple of projects that’s going really well, then you can say, “Great. Now, let’s commit to working together for a while.” It’s like dating before you get married. Ask them out on a date. See if it goes well, ask them out on another one, and don’t commit too soon. Then, if it doesn’t go well, stop it fast. Get rid of them because red flags rarely go away.
[Tweet “Hire slow, fire fast.”]
In dating or in business. That’s great information. We’re going to tweet that out, “Hire slow, fire fast,” and all that good stuff. Next thing I wanted to ask you is, because you’re so good at this, when someone has a startup business, one of the things investors really take a deep dive into is, “Okay, you’ve gotten a little bit of traction. You have some clients. What do you do to keep those clients happy and renewing as opposed to having to constantly find new clients to keep the revenue coming in?
Client retention is so important. I put way more focus on client retention than I do client acquisition. First of all because referrals from your happy clients are way better than cold leads. Client retention is super important. We have a whole retention strategy at Interview Connections. I have somebody on my team, Sue, she’s our director of client happiness. A huge part of her work with me is implementing a gratitude program. This is what we do, when a client signs up, they get a welcome package in the mail, by priority mail. They’re going to get something two days after they sign up in the mail. It has a tip sheet, a handwritten note card, thanking them for joining. A couple little goodies just so they have something there. Then, every few months they’re getting something else in the mail, whether it’s a free book, a business book or a t-shirt, we have Rock the Podcast t-shirts. We send brownies out from SendOutCards every few months.
Yes, I just got some.
Just stuff to keep saying, “Hey, we’re really happy that you’re working with us. Thank you so much.” We started doing these awards. I don’t know if you got one yet, John. They’re just these certificates.
Yes, I did. I did get one.
It makes people smile. I think that a lot of business owners think they need to be sending out these expensive gifts. While you do want to accurately thank your clients, a handwritten note sometimes goes a much longer way than some expensive bottle of wine sent from your assistant. Just reminding people, “Hey, we’re thinking about you. We’re really happy that you’re a client.” All of that, we do that. Another part of my retention, John, is I am a content creating machine. I really focus on creating content for my clients.
For example, one episode of my podcast that I did recently was Your Roadmap To Podcast Interview Success. I tried to e-mail that link to that podcast personally to as many of my clients as I could, really encouraging them to listen to it. I’ve actually seen my client retention increase a lot since I have been focusing my podcast episodes on topics that are helping my clients be more successful with their podcast interviews. I know when they’re more successful with their podcast interviews, they’ll stay with me longer. That’s a huge part of it.
You’re giving them media training in addition to getting them booked. It’s what it looks like to me.
Exactly. That was a huge light bulb for me over the last six months or so. People pay Interview Connections to get booked, but the only reason they’re going to stay is if it actually works for them, and there’s so much more that they need. They need media training, they need to learn about marketing, they need to know about how to work with a virtual assistant because they can’t do it all on their own. I’m doing blogs, videos, podcasts, all about that. In my intake calls now, I say this directly, “I highly encourage you to become a student of me so I can teach you how to do better.” I have not had many clients canceling. The retention has gone up since I’ve really put a focus on all that.
[Tweet “How to have a gratitude program to keep clients happy and stay with you.”]
That’s fantastic. We’re going to tweet that out, “How to have a gratitude program to keep clients happy and stay with you.” It’s really great. Do you have one little last tip you can give? If someone is fortunate enough to get to work with you and you get them on a podcast that can help them with relationships and exposure and social proof, what’s one tip you would say that makes a great guest on a podcast?
Provide value. I know that sounds super general and we hear that all the time, provide value. What does that actually mean? You really have to get in a mindset of serving first and being a giver and just focus on making that podcast the best it could be. Be a giver, be someone that’s providing value to that show. I say that because a lot of people go into podcast interviews, especially when you’re viewing it as a marketing strategy for your business, and you’re thinking a lot about like, “How is this going to grow my business? How’s this going to grow my list?” You really need to flip that switch and think about, “How am I going to help the podcast grow their audience? How am I going to make this show as valuable as I can make it?” Really focus on quality, compelling content and you will attract people to you.
[Tweet “Provide value and compelling content when you’re a guest on any show.”]
That’s great. Quality, compelling content. That’s it, people. Right there. Figure out how you can give value whenever you’re asked to be a guest on anything. Jessica, how can people follow you? How can they find out more about getting you to get them on a podcast? Or if somebody wants to start a podcast and get guests, they can get you to help them make all that happen, what’s the best way to do all that?
If you go to JessicaRhodes.biz that is my main home base on the web. It has my blog, podcast, videos. If you click on the Work With Me tab, you can learn about Interview Connections and how we get people booked on podcast.
Fantastic. It’s been wonderful having you on. Sharing your own entrepreneurial journey, how to pitch to get people to really understand why they’re the right fit. That’s the secret to getting funded as well. Thanks, Jessica.
Thanks, John.
Links Mentioned
- Interview Connections
- Judy Robinett
- Interview Connections TV
- Rhodes to Success
- The Podcast Producers
- The Parenting Rhodes
- as a guest from EOFire
- 360 Entrepreneur
- my podcast for an interview
- Yann Ilunga
- Rev.com
- Upwork
- SendOutCards
- Your Roadmap To Podcast Interview Success
- JessicaRhodes.biz
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