Build A Big Network By Becoming A Friend Of A Friend with David Burkus
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Episode Summary:
A lot of successful business owners keep saying that for you to get ahead of everyone else, you need to see the disruption before it happens. But how exactly do you do that? David Burkus, the world’s top business thought leader believes that best way to do this is creating connections to build a network so you can see what other people are seeing and then you can connect the dots to the disruption. This authentic and collaborative relationship starts when you become a friend of a friend.
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This episode’s guest is David Burkus, the author of Friend of a Friend, and he tells us about our hidden networks. If you’re not familiar with the term of what a weak tie is or a dormant tie is in your network, he’s going to explain what that means so you no longer have to push yourself out in these networking situations handing out business cards to strangers and hoping that suddenly works. He’s got a whole different way of doing it. David is all about figuring out what your social capital is so that your network can become your net worth. He said when you tap into this hidden network, you’re doing it in a structured way that’s been proven scientifically so that you can become a super connector and realize that what you have to offer other people is what makes them want to know, like, trust, and keep you in their network.
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Build A Big Network By Becoming A Friend Of A Friend with David Burkus
Our guest is David Burkus. He’s a bestselling author, a sought-after speaker, and business school professor. In 2017, he was named one of the world’s top business thought leaders by Thinkers50. His new book coming out, Friend of a Friend, offers readers a new perspective on how to grow their networks and build key connections, one that’s based on the science of human behavior, not just rote networking advice. He’s the author of Under New Management and The Myths of Creativity. He’s a contributor to Harvard Business Review. His work has been featured in everything from Fast Company to Inc. Magazine and CBS This Morning. David’s innovative views on leadership has earned him invitations to speak to leaders from organizations in the Fortune 500 like Microsoft, Google and the US Naval Academy. His TED Talk has been viewed over 1.8 million times. When he’s not speaking or writing, David’s in the classroom. He’s the associate professor of leadership and innovation at Oral Roberts University. He was named one of the nation’s Top 40 Under 40 Professors Who Inspire.
David, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much for having me. You’ve outed me as under 40. Thanks for saying you’d love to have me as a teacher.
When I was that young, and I’m not anymore, someone said to me, “It’s a handicap you’ll soon outgrow.”
I have been excited about being an up and comer.
In Hollywood, everybody wants the young people.
The only problem is I have to actually arrive. The problem with being an up and comer is you got to actually arrive, otherwise you are forgotten. The pressure is on.
Friend Of A Friend: The problem with being an up and comer is you’ve got to actually arrive, otherwise you are forgotten.
Not today. That’s a lot to accomplish at any age, let alone under 40. What inspired you to say, “This is what I want to do with my life.” You could take us as far back as you want, your old story of origin.
I went to undergraduate university as an English major. I want to be a writer. I want to be like Ernest Hemingway but with a lot longer life expectancy. When you are nineteen years old, the big dilemma if you want to be a writer is, “I’m going to write fiction,” because that’s the only thing I am aware of because I’m nineteen years old. “Am I going to be Ernest Hemingway? Virender Kapoor? Am I going to be James Patterson?” You have no idea of all the other genres out there. While I was at university, I also learned one other thing, which is the fact that most of the faculty that were teaching were pretty poor. They weren’t exactly successful writers, otherwise they wouldn’t be teaching in university. Some of them has some decent success, but they were all going that track of trying to be literary genius, which doesn’t pay well.
I found a paperback copy of Malcom Gladwell’s The Tipping Point, which is my least favorite of all of his books now. This is ironic, but what was amazing about it to me as someone studying writing and storytelling was how good he could tell a story about something that was true. This whole idea of narrative non-fiction had never occurred to me. What he was telling was also useful because it was steeped in science and good ideas. That was one where I’m like, “This is fun. Where do I learn more about this?” I started reading a lot of the other folks that were arriving at the time, Daniel Pink, Chip and Dan Heath, and those kinds of books, and left university thinking, “This is what I’m going to write, non-fiction steeped in social science with a story-telling bend,” because that’s what I learned how to do these last four years.
I also need to eat, so I worked in the pharmaceutical industry for six years as I went to graduate school part time. Eventually, I graduated that and made a big leap. I was an accidental professor. At no point in time have I planned on doing that. What happened was the affordable care was signed. One thing is for certain, it is going to change just about every industry that are butted up against healthcare. I started thinking, “Maybe I should look for a lifeboat now while no one is looking.” I jumped ship and I started collecting some adjunct courses. Eventually, that turned into, “We like you. Would you like to apply to this full time position that’s open?” I did, and it has been a phenomenal job to have while focusing in on being a writer and speaker. They have done a good job of not caring that I write in the academic journals and publishing tier one stuff that gets read by fifteen people but gets you tenure. I work for a small university. They love any attention that we bring them.
I figured out in grad school easily that I am a way better storyteller than I am a researcher. I’m terrible at doing it, I find it boring, but I love talking about other people. That has become the unifying thing in everything that I do. I’m trying to get good ideas out of the ivory tower and into the corner office or the co-working space or the coffee shop, wherever work gets done, trying to get those ideas that are complicated, put handles on them so people can start using them as a tool.
Friend of a Friend . . .: Understanding the Hidden Networks That Can Transform Your Life and Your Career
I love it. That line you said, “Look for a lifeboat while no one’s watching,” is a great tweet because that concept of anticipating disruption before it hits is what allows people to stay ahead. Let’s talk about your book, Friend of a Friend. The subtitle is Understanding the Hidden Networks That Can Transform Your Life and Your Career. What’s a hidden network?
When we use term hidden network, we are referring to different elements from network science. For most people, when they hear the word networking, they’re thinking one of two things. They’re thinking of that cocktail people full of strangers where they stood in the corner of the room and talk awkward the whole time, or they think about those people who are just focused on running up the count, collecting as many business cards as possible or as many LinkedIn connections. We took for this book a different approach, which is that you don’t have a network, you can’t grow a network, you exist inside of a network. The best networkers are the people that figure that out and respond accordingly.
Your hidden network specifically refers to things that get overlooked if you are in that first faulty mental model of trying to run up the count. It’s made out of things like your weak and your dormant ties. A lot of folks are familiar with some of the early research on weak ties. Dormant ties, in particular, which are a form of stronger connections that fell by the wayside, are incredibly powerful and incredibly useful. It’s also referring to who is at the fringes of the network and who is one introduction away from you. A lot of people wait until they need something and they start begging for specific introductions. There are better ways to develop an awareness of who’s just one introduction away from you so that when you do need it, you are there but you are in touch with the people who are going to be those pathways often enough that it’s not an awkward ask. The rest that is hidden is less about the network structure itself and more about the phenomenon of networks and the things that happen in every network, whether it be people, electrical grids, computer systems, and food chain ecosystems. There are a bunch of different principles from network science that are universally true that people start to understand how to have a way better map of their map and figure out how to respond accordingly.
Let’s double-click on each of these terms you gave us so that the people can say, “Now I understand what a weak tie is and what a dormant tie is.” We do encourage people, once they understand the concepts, to write out those people in those two categories.
You don’t need to write them out. You just need to pay better attention. I love that term double-click. A lot of people are familiar with the term “weak tie.” I’m not the first person to talk about it, but it’s misunderstood. A lot of people believe that a weak tie is your friend of a friend or is a person you don’t know but is one introduction away. It’s not a weak tie. Specifically, a week tie is someone you know but you don’t know that well. You know their name, their face, you are a little bit familiar with their background, but you never hung out together. You never had a long conversation. You don’t them know that well but they are still there.
Would that be like a Facebook friend that somebody asked them to friend you, but you’ve never met them?
[Tweet “Tap into your hidden network.”]
It could be. I actually reject all of those. You and I are both in a powerful Facebook group for speakers, and there are a lot of folks that you and I both know but we probably don’t “know” know. We haven’t hung out, we haven’t had dinner together, we haven’t seen each other in an event yet. We are a little familiar with their work but we are not super familiar with them. We just interact in those space. Some of them will become close-knit ties, but most of them will probably stay weak ties just because you can’t be best-friends with everybody. It doesn’t work. It’s simple linguistics. It wouldn’t be best then. That’s different from a dormant tie. A dormant tie is somebody who was a close connection at some point but for some reason they fell by the way side. Either you changed jobs or they changed jobs or they moved cities. Sometimes there are some reasons we make someone a dormant tie, but they’re somebody whose connection was stronger but they fell by the way side.
If you think about your community, if you think about the network that you are in as a three-dimensional object, the circles and lines that you can picture when I say the term “network,” your close connections are close to you three-dimensionally. Your weak and your dormant ties are far out in the network. But because they are far out in the network, they are close to other people, which means your weak and your dormant ties are usually a source of new information, new opportunities, new connections, and new referrals. They are usually a better source than your close-knit connections. Often, the people that we are closest to, we all think alike, act alike, sometimes look alike. We all have access to the same information, so it’s not as useful a lot of times as those weak and dormant ties.
I have an example of that happening to me a couple of years ago. It’s someone I went to college with many years ago. We lost touch, I moved from Illinois to LA, he moved from Illinois to DC. Then he was Googling for a speaker at his company and I came up in the search. Somehow, he found my content or looked me up, and then he just reached out. I hadn’t heard from him in years. He said, “We’re looking for a speaker to come and talk about how to help the architects tell better stories to get more clients. Would that be something you’d be interested in?” I was like, “Oh, my God.” Is that the dormant contact you’re talking about?
That’s exactly right. I had a similar experience happen one time. I was in pharma for six years and I used to see this rep who used to work for one company and he changed jobs, became a trainer, started working internally. He moved on to New Jersey where basically all the pharmaceutical company is based. The same thing happened. Fast forward five or six years, he’s looking for folks for their internal speaker series for the executives, and he’s like, “I know this guy.” He started reaching out and we had that whole connection. It happens often.
In the book, we talked about the craziest example I have ever heard, which is the UFC Mixed Martial Arts became the fastest-growing sport in America because Dana White and Lorenzo Ferttita were dormant ties. They went to high school together and Dana got kicked out. Fast forward ten years, they see each other at their high school friend’s wedding and they reconnect and start trading text messages and emails about prize fighting because they both love that sport. Dana is the one that is connected to the UFC’s original owners and finds out that they were losing money. He calls up Lorenzo and says, “I think the UFC is for sale and I think you should buy it.” Lorenzo just happens to be running around in the Nevada State Athletic Commission, hosting boxing events at his family’s casinos. You have this perfect mix of this guy who is running around the UFC community which is on the verge of getting banned, and then this other guy who’s running around in the sport regulatory agencies. They reconnect after ten years and come together, they purchased the UFC, they take it over, they get it regulated, they do the things you need to do to be a successful promotion, and two years ago they sold it for $4 billion. $4 billion is the same amount of money that Disney paid Lucas Film for the entire Star Wars franchise. This is a lot of money and it literally wouldn’t have happened if two guys didn’t reconnect at a high school friend’s wedding.
Friend Of A Friend: Your weak and dormant ties are usually a source of new information. They are usually a better source than your close-knit connections.
That is a great example of your network being your net worth, don’t you think?
Absolutely. In sociology, they use the term social capital to describe the value that’s in your network, both the value that’s created for a community, and also the value that you create for yourself when you start tending to the network and worrying about its internal connections and who is connected to you. There are a ton of research that shows that just simple lessons about how social capital works and how network works make executives more likely to get promoted, more likely to get raises, more likely to end up in leadership roles, just all of these incredible forms of value that happen when you stop paying attention to “who do I know?” and start paying attention to the whole network and the potential for value that’s there.
That leads right into one of your key takeaways from your talk about Friend of a Friend on your book is how do we foster authentic and collaborative relationships?
In terms of weak and dormant ties, you already have this. You can do something rudimentary, like you could make a list of people when you scroll through your phone and you realize you haven’t talked to them in a year and a half. If you have a Facebook account or a LinkedIn account, you probably feel like I do. You newsfeed is just overloaded with people that are like, “I met you at conference two years ago, and now I see every update you post on LinkedIn.” Those broadcasts are great opportunities to reach back out. To some extent, the social network companies know this. That’s why they do weird things like, “Congrats on your work anniversary.” If you ever had a work anniversary, you know there are so many people sending you those that you can’t keep track of it all.
What I tell people a lot of time you can do, just strolling through that newsfeed and you see something that connects, even if you haven’t talked to that person a long time, you can offer them something simple. Maybe it’s just a simple, “We’re moving from Illinois to Washington, DC.” Maybe it’s a simple, “This is the single best place in DC to get handmade pop tarts.” Don’t post it on LinkedIn. Send them an email or a text message or a phone call, something more intimate that depends on your relationship with them, and then follow up with a simple question. “Besides that, what else is new?” or, “Tell me more about your transition.” Use that little piece of information and that offer of something valuable as an opportunity to reengage that conversation. If you make this a regular habit with all of these weak ties, then they are there when you need them. It just seems like one other conversation.
[Tweet “What is your social capital?”]
Here’s my key takeaway, everybody, from what he just said. This is gold. You might want to write this down, highlight it, whatever you do to retain information because what David just said is worth so much in your social capital. Respond to people in a way that’s personal and relevant. Take the time to not just ignore or give thanks when someone says something as simple as, “Congrats on your work anniversary.” After you’ve given some content that has some value, follow that up with, “What else is new with you?” Take an interest in someone else. Is that a fairly good summary of what you said?
I love it. People do the exact opposite. They ignore people until they need something, and then they usually send that, “What’s new?” and then the four-paragraph thing about what they need. You know they don’t care about what’s new.
The big takeaway for me is building relationships before you need them, almost like what you did when you talked about, “I got to find a lifeboat before anybody knows I’m looking. Let’s not wait until there’s a crisis.”That’s the importance if you have a job to keep your network alive so that you’re not waiting until you’re laid off to go find a job.
That’s exactly right. My actual situation, what I did was I gave myself a year. I was in an all-company meeting the day after it was signed. It was signed on Sunday night, I was in an all-company meeting on Monday, but it wasn’t about that. It was already a planned meeting, we were all talking about, “This is what’s coming in the fall,” and how we were excited and how we are going to make all this money and I’m sitting there going, “No one is addressing what just happened and how things are going to change.” I wrote my resignation letter on my company laptop sitting in that meeting, me in a sea of a thousand employees supposed to be excited about whatever new drug they were talking about. I wrote my resignation letter, but I dated it for a year later. I came home, I print it out, and I told my wife about it. It was sitting at my desk at home a little less than a year.
I gave myself a year because I knew I need to start building relationships in this new area. Because I was in graduate school, I had a couple of connections. I picked that as the easiest transition for me, but I need to stop focusing on any relationships inside the pharmaceutical industry that’s not going to help me anymore. I need to start focusing on the relationship over here. It took nine, ten months of building out those relationships to get to the point where it happened. I didn’t run around begging people I just met for a job, I was just focused on, “I need to start creating these relationships so that this network is there when I ultimately do need it inside of a year.” I was prepared to quit inside of a year anyway, but I didn’t need it. It was ten and a half months when I signed the actual contract for the full time position.
One of the things that makes you so unique and what your keynotes and your books are about is you have this ability to combine insights about creativity with management skills and now hidden networks. I love that thread because once someone like me find someone like you, I want to read all of your books. You gave us an example of coming up with a creative new place to eat for someone who’s moved to a new town, but let’s double-click on your expertise on creativity. You have this other great book, The Myths of Creativity. How can people use creativity in their ability to build their network?
The big shift here on creativity is there needs to be a mental model shift. A network is not just growing the number of context that you have, it’s looking at the entire network. There is a mental model shift that needs to happen with creativity, too. The Myths of Creativity attacks this idea that only certain people are creative and other people aren’t. It attacks it on the linguistic level. There are terms that people who are trying to dismiss their own creativity use that people who are doing creative work from day to day do not. They’ll say things like, “It just came to me.” Where was it before? They use these terms. The book is about changing that terminology. First and foremost, the biggest terminology when it comes to networks and connecting is people always say this phrase like, “It’s all who you know.” That’s good news because it means that if it’s all who you know, then just go know people. Figure out who to know.
Friend Of A Friend: People ignore people until they need something.
When you look at the creative process, we tend to think it starts with brainstorming and coming up with great ideas. That’s the first fun moment, but when you look at design firms or even films, there’s a ton of research that goes in ahead of time. In my case, with looking at trying to make a job transition, the research part is the most overlooked part of getting creative. In a job transition, too, people will usually tap their closest circle and they will start blindly to respond to job postings on Monster.com instead of going, “I need to research, which means I need to map this network. I need to figure out who’s connected to who, who I’m connected to, who I’m on one degree of separation from.” Truthfully, it’s less about coming out with new and novel ideas and more about taking the time the way that someone at a design firm or someone who’s making a film or writing a book would do to research and to start understanding that network around you. Usually, the path appears.
All of that said, there are definitely some small tactical things you can do to get creative. I already mentioned one, which is ignore the built-in tools and start thinking about creative and unique ways you can reach out to someone. I love John Ruhlin who does a lot in gift-giving.
I have had him on.
He’s the most creative guy I have ever known in terms of figuring out how to give gifts and who to give. He even talks about the first thing you need to do is figure out who is in your inner circle, and you have to take care of your inner circle. They’ll appreciate that and see it as a gift. To me, it’s about doing this research to see the entirety of the problem, and that’s when the great insights happen.
His book, Giftology, along with your book, Friend of A Friend, would be the one-two combo punch that I would recommend people get because then you understand all the mistakes about horrible gifts like gift cards and when to give a gift especially around building your network. The thing that I hear from you is this concept of being aware of the importance of our network and then having some time dedicated to focusing on growing it and planning it as opposed to it just haphazardly happening.
That’s definitely true. Networks do not happen by accident. We tend to think they do and that’s why we throw up our hands and go, “It’s all who you know.” Yes, there is definitely nepotism, there are definitely people who are born into the right social circles. That happens. Especially in the west, especially in the United States, it’s much more likely that somebody got a great network from actually working.
In the book we talk about this term super connectors. It’s an overused term. Some people believe that it comes from the networking advice books. The truth is it is actually a network science term to describe the people who are usually in the gravitational center of the network and have the most connections. The thing that is most interesting about super connectors is not that they are connected to everybody, it’s that after a certain period of time, a principle called preferential attachment takes over. This is essentially when a new person joins a community, they are more likely to get introduced to the person who is most connected. They are going to give preferential nature to attaching with people that are already very well connected. I think about it more like a gravitational pull. Once you get a certain mass, the gravitational pull gets larger enough to pull other things to it and then that mass gets its center. There are two good news here. It’s kind of bad news. This is why people who seem like networking happens to them easily, you’re seeing them after ten years of work. The good news is that if you put in the work, eventually that gravitational mass starts accumulating and it does take over. It gets easier, but that’s not an excuse not to put in the work on the forefront.
[Tweet “Are you a super connector?”]
We’re back full circle to your book, The Tipping Point. I love connecting the dots.
Gladwell used the term super connectors in that. I think he uses super connectors, then he makes a brief reference to the terminology from network science. Most people actually say that it was Perozzi that invented it, but in network science, it referred to those people that are always connected to everyone with the assumption being that the most connected people are the reason that everybody is so interlaced. You heard the term “six degrees of separation.” The belief was that it’s the super connectors that are the reason that everybody is well-connected. The truth is that networks, by their very nature, are so resilient that everybody is connected anyways because people move. People move from Chicago to Southern California and as a result, they bring those connections with them. In that regard, in movie networks, the most famous super connector person is Kevin Bacon. We found out he’s the 669th most connected person in Hollywood, which is good news. You don’t need to be Kevin Bacon to have an incredibly useful network. Even if you are Kevin Bacon, you can still have an incredibly useful network that connects other people that you can get new connections from.
For myself, and I’d be curious to see if this becomes something you notice as well, it’s almost like a muscle. Creativity is a muscle. Making introductions becomes a muscle if you start orienting your brain to what value can I give? Who can I introduce that I know in my circle could help someone? I recently met a guy, Rich, who said, “I’ve got this company, RichNuts. I’m growing nuts from sprouts. It’s all very healthy and they taste better and the nutrition’s better. I used to be a fireman and I use that to get through my long shifts and now I got this company.” I said, “That’s a fascinating product. Do you know Eric, the Founder of Tender Greens which is a restaurant that’s here in California in New York that serves healthy food?” He goes, “No.” I said, “Let me see if I can make an introduction.”
I reached out to Eric at Tender Greens to say, “Here’s Rich’s story. Here’s his website. This is the person you would like an introduction to because you have the same philosophy of the quality of food and all this other stuff.” I got his permission first and he just wrote back one word, “Absolutely.” I made the intro and I’m thinking in my head, “What if Rich Nuts suddenly became what they put on the salads at Tender Greens. How cool would that be?” That gave me a charge. I get nothing out of it except introducing two people that are both into health food that are trying to make the world healthier. That stuff just lights me up. Is that the creativity with a muscle? How can other people do something like that if they don’t automatically think like that?
It’s a habit. You develop the habit. Creativity is a habit of just knowing now’s the time to do research, now’s the time you need to have lots of ideas. Network is a habit. In Friend of a Friend, we interviewed Jordan Harbinger, a friend of mine and a fellow podcaster as well and a super connector, but he wasn’t always. He was a law school dropout. He didn’t technically graduate. He quit his first company that he went to work for as a lawyer. He runs a podcast. It’s the only thing he does. It’s the only thing he wants to do. There’s no other business venture there. Most people he meets, he can help, unless you could be a good guest on the show, he can help them. One of the things they have developed is that habit of whenever he’s meeting somebody, what’s he’s listening for is “Who is the person I already know that this person needs to get connected to? How can I offer this person value by letting them tap into someone else?” Then he introduces. Even when he has a smaller group of people that knew who Jordan was, he still was thinking, “When I meet someone new, how can I help them through an introduction?” Over time, it became a habit, and over time, his amount of influence and connect level and connections grew. Now he’s at the point where he can ask for an introduction to anyone because anyone who knows him know he’s someone who’s super generous with his own connections and his own ability to give an introduction.
Friend Of A Friend: Creativity is a habit of just knowing now’s the time to do research, now’s the time you need to have lots of ideas.
I love it. What would be the one thing that you would want people to know about your book, Friend of a Friend, that would make them say, “How have I survived without this book?”
Most people get turned off by the idea of networking. If there is a small group of people who love it, this book will help you. It wasn’t written for you. It was written for the people that have read the networking advice book, read the How to Win Friends & Influence People. They are great books but they are someone else’s advice and experience. They’ve gone and tried to put that into practice, and then they felt sleazy and inauthentic, and no wonder because they are not being them in that moment. They are being someone else. They are wondering, “Why isn’t this working? Why doesn’t this come easier?” I don’t think you need another book and advice. What most people need is to understand what is universally true about networks. Once you learn how the network that’s around you is already operating, you can figure out your own advice. You can figure out, “This is what I need to do because this is what I’m neglecting.” The biggest takeaway is if you’re ever trying to give the perfect elevator pitch and you feel so inauthentic, stop and go learn how networks work. Then you’ll figure out how to work it properly.
It’s funny because I worked with people all the time on how to have a good elevator pitch.
It’s a different thing though. You even will probably tell people, “You’re not going to run into the pitch for your whole venture.” You are going to work your network to get the introduction to go meet with a venture on the list, and then you get into the pitch. There is definitely a place and a time for it, but it’s not a cocktail party.
I often tell people when someone says to you, “What do you do?”it is not an invitation for a ten-minute monologue. David, I can’t thank you enough for sharing your insights not only on how we can be a friend of a friend, but also how we can take our creativity into building our network so that we have more authentic and collaborative relationships with the people we work with and the people that we don’t know yet but our friends know. It’s been valuable. If there’s any last little takeaway you want to leave us with, obviously we’re going to follow you on social media, which is just your name @DavidBurkus.
To find the link to my book, go over John’s show notes. I am on a lot of podcast. I’m a podcaster and I am jealous of his show notes. You’re going to find a lot of value just in that, so please go over to that, especially for this episode. Go see them. They are fantastic.
Thanks, David. We are going to not let this weak tie stay weak.
I love it.
Thanks.
Links Mentioned:
- David Burkus
- Friend of a Friend
- Under New Management
- The Myths of Creativity
- David’s TED Talk
- The Tipping Point
- The Myths of Creativity
- Monster.com
- John Ruhlin
- Giftology
- Jordan Harbinger
- How to Win Friends & Influence People
- @DavidBurkus – Twitter
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