Real Business Connections Network With Ben Albert
Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments
We all took a hit when COVID-19 struck the world. Many businesses closed, and many more became unemployed. Ben Albert was one of those people. Furloughed from work, he went on a downward spiral towards depression and battling imposter syndrome. Fortunately, this was only the start of his hero’s journey. Now, he hosts a network of five podcasts called Real Business Connections Network and is the owner of Balbert Marketing LLC. What is the key to his success? Join this episode as he sits down with John Livesay to fill in the gaps of his story of reinvention, overcoming his feelings of being unworthy, and starting an incredible marketing firm. You just might find the missing piece to your own success story!
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Listen to the podcast here
Real Business Connections Network With Ben Albert
Our guest on the show is Ben Albert, who has a real hero’s journey story of how he reinvented himself and overcame the Imposter syndrome to start an incredible marketing firm. He said, “The true key to success is finding your unique combination and unlocking it.” Enjoy the episode.
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When COVID hit, Ben Albert was furloughed from work. He found himself down and out staring at an empty handle of Jim Beam whiskey. He was unemployed, depressed and felt unworthy. Presently, he opened his MacBook and started reaching out to strangers on LinkedIn. This spearheaded his entrepreneurial journey. The rest is history. Ben hosts a network of five podcasts called Real Business Connections, runs a massively successful marketing firm, Balbert Marketing and has replaced his established sales income in over a year.
Ben found his way. Once an underdog, now a successful entrepreneur. Ben is passionate about helping other underdogs find their way and achieve their dreams. He’s on a mission to move the needle on 1 million lives 1 conversation at a time. I’ve had the pleasure of being on his podcast and I am thrilled to bring him to my audience and readers. Ben, welcome to the show.
John, I’m humbled to be here. Your episode has been one of my favorites and one of my reader’s favorites. You always over deliver and that’s why I love hanging out with you.
Thanks. Let’s talk about your story of origin. Take us back before COVID, if you don’t mind, when you were saying, “I want to get into this business, whether it’s sales or marketing.” What were you doing that got you into the world of marketing in the first place?
Feel free to dissect this because I am here to learn something new every single day in every single conversation. It’s funny because I didn’t see myself as a marketer, promoter or podcaster. When I was a kid, I was the quietest kid in school and very reclusive. I got bullied so I’d make myself even smaller. Everyone starts to hit a growth spurt. I stayed the same height.
I’m the second smallest kid. There was a little Asian girl that was a little shorter. I was always proud of myself for not being the shortest but I also had a basketball jersey for every single day of the week because I wanted to be the next Vince Carter and Michael Jordan. Imagine what happens to the shortest kid in school that’s bullied and is too quiet that wants to be the next Michael Jordan. The probability of getting there was pretty low.
I was always identified as an underdog. I didn’t quite realize it at the time but I was developing this love of learning and a growth mindset. I didn’t have a sense of belonging at the time. It wasn’t until around high school that I started to, as a late bloomer, find my way. It was a friend, Brendon Gansemer, who introduced me to the music industry. I became obsessed with music.
There’s a local band. I don’t know if anyone’s heard of him, Giant Panda Guerilla Dub Squad but I love them. They’re a great band. Before you know it, I was the one handing out flyers, selling merchandise and setting up MySpaces at the time. I found that I was in alignment with great people that uplifted each other and it was something I was passionate about. I was no longer the quiet person. I still wasn’t the best musician per se but my sweet spot was quite amplifying musicians and being the promoter and the marketer.
I wasn’t going to school for marketing. I didn’t even know what I wanted to be when I grew up at the time. I started developing this love of promoting underdogs and at the time musicians. I found my way in marketing by accident. It was a sales job and I wanted to make a lot of money. I realized in that role that I was passionate about connecting with people, taking their businesses and helping them reach the next level by listening first.
[bctt tweet=”Keep doing it to get over feeling like an imposter.” username=”John_Livesay”]
I like to joke, “I get to ask questions for a living.” In the podcast, it’s all about interviewing incredible people like you to learn about storytelling and then learn tangible tips. Learn through their stories and what they have learned throughout. Ultimately, take their wisdom, put it into practice and multiply their wisdom. In the marketing firm, I’m still that curious growth-minded person so it’s asking questions for a living and determining the best fit if I can serve them.
Knowing that I’m not a good fit for everyone and every company’s different, I went in, asked questions and learned that I once had no sense of belonging and was sad with an alcoholic father. They joke about this in psychology. People get into psychology because they’re trying to figure themselves out. I got into podcasting and marketing because I’m trying to figure myself out.
A lot of people will talk about podcasting as a great networking tool or a way to monetize your content. I started my show 450 some episodes ago. I realized that I had some fears about it. I had to put a face on them. For me, it was the fear of, “How do I even do this? I’ve been a guest but how do I be a host?” I found someone that does that for me.
The fear of the unknown of the tech part went away. There was the fear of rejection, “What if I ask people to be on the show and they say no?” I’ve been in sales like you. We don’t take rejection personally and then the fear of failure. “What if I launch it and nobody listens? I’ll waste time and money. I’ll be embarrassed.” Did you have any of those fears, Ben?
At that time, I didn’t have too much to lose because you touched on it in the bio. I was furloughed for my sales executive role. I was able to replace my income by starting my marketing firm but it was because I had been through so much failure and struggle and learning experiences to get me there. I grew up with an alcoholic father. When I started binge drinking when COVID hit, I saw myself. Imagine, you know where the North Star is and you’re running backward in the wrong direction. Since I’m running backward, I can still see that North Star.
I know how to get there but whether it’s binge eating or drinking, I was doing all the wrong things and I knew better. It wasn’t until I started the podcast with nothing to lose. Granted, let’s be transparent. The government was cutting me checks for being unemployed. It was the weirdest time in human history. I was getting these fat checks for being unemployed. What I did is I lived very humbly, took that money from the government and reinvested in the business knowing the power of podcasting.
I didn’t necessarily do it to monetize the podcast. I did know that podcasts don’t make money on their own but I knew that if I could network with the right people and obtain the right knowledge, that would be worth its weight in gold. The rest is history. We’ve got a couple of hundred episodes plus. I’ve built a good community and a great company but it’s by learning from brilliant people like John.
What’s your biggest surprise in hosting a podcast?
No one’s ever asked me that before. The biggest surprise was what you had mentioned as one of your fears and it still is a fear sometimes when you’re stepping out to ask someone out of your league. I’ve had so many people on. You’ll be able to go listen to it. Chris Van Vliet was on my show. He is a four-time Emmy Award-Winning Host. He’s been nominated for eleven. I’m stumbling forward, networking well and learning as I go but I’m no Chris Van Vliet.
Real Business Connections: Part of building a lifestyle business is not working with people that are completely misaligned with your vision and your truth.
He was willing to put his chips on me, the little guy, knowing that there is a high potential that even if we reach 1,000 people and change 100 of those people’s lives, he thinks it’s worth his time to spend 45 minutes with me. I’m humbled every single day at the ability to connect and learn from such brilliant people. You do get the nerves because you have that Imposter syndrome feeling like you’re unworthy sometimes when you reach out to some of these big names.
Let’s talk about Imposter syndrome. I’ve certainly suffered from it. I remember once I was engaged to be one of the speakers at the Coca-Cola Summit for the CMOs of brands that carry Coca-Cola at movie theaters and quick service restaurants. They create this beautiful brochure that’s in the hotel room. I’m reading all the bios of all the other speakers whom all went to Yale and Harvard and have New York Times bestsellers. My Imposter syndrome kicked in big time.
I thought, “I didn’t go to an Ivy League school. I went to a good school, don’t get me wrong but it’s not Harvard or Yale. I have a book that sold well but it wasn’t a New York Times.” I started getting all this anxiety like, “The VP who hired me, she’s going to get fired for bringing me in.” I did talk myself off the ledge and say, “Maybe she knows what she’s doing. She’s been here a long time. Maybe she saw something in your speaker video that she thought she liked.”
I was able to talk myself off the ledge by saying, “Do I care where somebody went to school when I hear them speak? No. Do I care how many books they sold? No. I care about how they make me feel and think and if I learn something that I can use.” That is the only way I was able to get out there and not be so intimidated. What tips do you have for people when they find themselves feeling like an imposter?
First, I’d like to say that it’s not going to get easier but you’ll get better. The number one tip is to go do it. If you do it and you’re not getting the result that you expect, seek a mentor because they can shorten that curve, create a bridge and maybe even connect or introduce that person in some scenarios. Learn because for every single one of these failures, there are great opportunities. Sit back and decompress, “What did I do wrong here? What can I change?” Be a scientist.
Sometimes the Imposter syndrome starts before you even open your mouth or do anything. One of your real strengths is the preparation that you do for each guest. One of my favorite quotes is from Arthur Ashe, the famous Tennis pro, who said, “The key to success is confidence and the key to confidence is preparation.” Internal thoughts are a strong way to dial down Imposter syndrome. Can you speak about the preparation you do as a podcast host, as a template for success? How important do you think it is to do it?
Preparation begins the moment you open your eyes in the morning. Everything beyond that is going to be unique. Brad Lee, a big sales mentor says, “There is no key to success. It’s a combination lock.” The true key is finding your unique combination because no two are alike as how no two fingers are similar. If you were to try to break into my phone, you’d have to cut my finger off and tape it to your finger. I don’t even know if that would work.
It’s possible but it’s not the best route. The preparation begins the moment you open your eyes. You have to ask yourself, “What’s the end in mind? What am I looking to achieve here?” Everyone’s going to be different. I don’t over-prepare but I want to prepare enough that I know at least a little bit about the person’s bios and their audience.
For me, the biggest piece of preparation in a podcast is taking a minute to ask them a couple of questions and get a feeling like, “What are you looking to accomplish? What’s bringing joy to your life? Is there anything that you’d like to promote,” and sudden attention of explaining who the audience is, whom they’re speaking to then go in. John, I used to prepare much more than I did. I’ve got a three-page sheet of questions. I created those questions on episode one. I did come in very prepared for episode one but now, I don’t use that cheat sheet because I know the general narrative.
[bctt tweet=”Create, Connect, and Community.” username=”John_Livesay”]
What’s more important and things that I’ve learned from people like you are giving people permission to tell their unique stories in a way that lights them up. The biggest preparation I can do and I’m not going to go into every little detail is to have a morning routine, work on myself first so I can show up to that podcast interview energized, prepared, ready to go and allow them to be their best self. All I am is a bit of a Sherpa or a guide. I guide the conversation. However, they choose the destination and the story.
You are very excited and grateful about the success you’re having in Balbert Marketing. Tell us who your ideal client is and how you find them.
I joke about this. I don’t work with craps. That’s a start. I immediately get rid of surprisingly a lot of people.
I saw Justin Bieber doing some little meme thing and he was asked to do something. He went, “Immediately no.” That’s my favorite. You don’t have to think about it. It’s like someone said to me, “Would you like to eat raw liver?” “Immediately no.”
I’m not there yet. I’m still on the journey like most people, readers and anyone else. I want to build a lifestyle business. Part of building a lifestyle business is not working with people that are misaligned with your vision and truth and growth-minded people that care about their community. I like to have a little bit of fun. When it comes to growth, community building and fun, those are three major values.
I’ll work with someone that don’t have those three values but for the most part, I’m trying to vet and work with people that have similar alignment and we’re looking to grow this thing and have fun doing it. We do want our pockets to overflow but overflow into everyone we meet and get to affect and collective impact we get to create as business people.
Do you have specific industries that you’ve helped with their brands or is it most individuals that are small business owners?
This is where you see that I’m an entrepreneur who has a new startup. The first thing you do when you’re an entrepreneur, they tell you to do all this planning. No one does it. Honestly, you could plan and fail. I dived in. Small to medium size businesses are 50 employees or less. Once you get to a certain size, there are marketing teams, a lot of checks and balances and hoops.
Part of the lifestyle business is I don’t want to jump through a lot of hoops. I like someone who’s agile, small and an underdog with massive growth potential but you can see that I’m an entrepreneur. I got started in the fact that I would take on about any client. As long as they fit those standards, I work with an aesthetician, a realtor, an eyecare clinic or a tech startup. The goal, which isn’t quite clear yet is to double and triple down on specifically podcasting and LinkedIn. Social selling, in addition to that, how to use podcasting and LinkedIn for social selling because quite honestly, that’s where 98% of my clients come from.
Real Business Connections: The amount of impact we can make is more valuable than the time it takes to do.
Why am I selling all these different services to fifteen different people when I can focus on what drives revenue for my business and teach other businesses how to do it? I’m still in that analysis paralysis working with multiple different companies. I’m very humbly proud to say that everyone I work with, we have an alignment of values. That’s still going to be the most important thing to me but long-term, I’ll niche down.
What’s the biggest mistake people make before they work with you in their marketing?
I’d say the biggest mistake most people make is not acknowledging the fact that it’s a long-term investment. Most marketing professionals guarantee an ROI. I’d have to see the metrics but in most of the cases, they’re crap. They can’t guarantee you to be first on Google unless you’re paying for ads to be there. The moment you stop paying for the ad, if you don’t have organics, you’re not going to come up. There are a lot of misconceptions. A lot of times, it’s salespeople creating a falsified vision of what they’re going to get out of marketing, people get burned time and time again then no one knows whom to trust.
Since you’ve been in sales and then you’re in the marketing side of things, there typically is a lot of animosity between the two departments. Salespeople say, “Marketing is not giving us good enough leads.” Marketing says, “The salespeople aren’t closing. They’re not saying the right message and not consistent.” You’ve been on both sides of the fence able to help your clients with that so that it doesn’t work against each other but work together.
It’s funny because I sold marketing. Since I sold online marketing, day one, I walked in the door and had no clue what I was doing. I had a CRM. We click dial and their name would pop up. I was so nervous and such an imposter and did so uncomfortable that I would try to transcribe every word they said. I’d call John and Elizabeth would pick up, the executive assistant, and say, “This is Elizabeth. How are you?” I’d be writing down the name Elizabeth.
She told me the name. I don’t need to write it down but I was so caught in my head and struggling. Over time, what we learned in this organization was to sell features and benefits. It wasn’t entirely unethical but it was more of a boiler room approach than it was like a Sherpa consultant being a guided approach. I learned to hammer down and create at that time. I didn’t realize what I was saying or know what I was doing. We were creating a false narrative of the results that they were going to get.
The number one reason I started to do well in my job is I started to pivot and not do what everyone else did. I started asking a bit more questions. I was okay jumping up on. If they didn’t buy the first time, I still would follow up. I would do all the friendly essentials and got better at it. I got to a level where I was one of the top producers kicking butt. I started to want to learn more about the products because I’m obsessed with that growth mentality.
I’m researching Google, looking up the keywords and starting to learn not as well as them at the time but what the marketers were doing on their end and fulfilling the orders. I would hear people saying things that were wrong. I would call them out on it and I had the door slammed in my face one time. My sales manager said, “Fix this,” and close the door on me with my trainer. What I was doing was questioning the narrative that was creating sales but we were the issue, John.
We were in the weeds in understanding the wrong way to do things and the value of marketing. Being able to paint a picture and how people realize and see their goals but not doing a great job fulfilling them or creating a false narrative ate away at me. I’m talking about years in the past and we can fast forward. When I started my company, it was to do everything differently from what I was taught. I had been in the weeds so I had seen the opportunity. Marketing creates billionaires when done the right way. My goal is to do it the right way.
[bctt tweet=”The preparation begins the moment you open your eyes.” username=”John_Livesay”]
I see one of your goals is to be a keynote speaker on the power of networking. Talk to us about how did you pick that topic and what your talk was about the topic of networking.
One thing I like to talk about is what I call the CCCCAN system. I didn’t realize the concept of the CCCCAN system when I started my business. I started to quantify everything twelve months later. If I had only known this going in, it would’ve taken me a quarter of the time. There are lots of Cs. I like adding Cs. I’m a big C guy. Create, Connect, Collaborate, Community And Networking. Creation is the reason and purpose for my networking. I can create content and network. We can build community and network.
When you go into a networking conversation with a creation-driven mindset and a can mindset like, “I can collaborate. Let’s look for collaborators,” you put on a different lens. It’s not like, “I do this for this person and I’m looking for this referral. Do you have them? Here’s a business card. If you don’t, maybe you’ll call me.” Who am I alignment with so that I can create something fun? Who can I create and network with?
I like the word fun a lot because it’s part of your culture. In addition to not being crap is, “Let’s have fun while we’re working together.” I believe people buy energy. With your energy and passion, fun comes through any marketing materials or websites. The other thing I want to ask you about is one of your goals is raising money for cystic fibrosis. Is there a story there that makes you pick that charity?
To give you the short version, I spent most of my life not giving back. I was raised Jewish and in Jewish, they call them a mitzvah. Mitzvahs are good deeds. The best mitzvah you can give is the ones that can’t be repaid. For example, in Judaism, helping bury a body is a great mitzvah because there’s no way in the world that they could ever repay you. I was raised on doing good deeds in mitzvahs. I was raised a certain way and then anxiety hits you and you start smoking weed and drinking in college. You’re following all the shoulds that people tell you, “Go to school, get a job this or that.” You forget to give back.
My connection with cystic fibrosis transparently wasn’t a personal one. It was as simple as I was so mad at myself for going so long selfishly that they asked me and I said yes. In doing so, we raised a lot of money and I love it. I raised $3,000 for cystic fibrosis in a grassroots campaign with 60 donors. We raised on under $5,000 for the Alzheimer’s Association. I’m looking to build an event for diabetes. My brother has diabetes. My mother had multiple sclerosis.
This was always within me but I did the wrong thing for so long that quite transparently, Cystic Fibrosis Foundation was the first person that asked and I gave him an emphatic yes. I’m happy I did because I realized the impact I get to make. My time is valuable but the amount of impact we can make is more valuable than the time it takes to.
Let’s double-click on that. Somebody at that foundation had the courage to reach out to you and ask. They happen to catch you at the right time. What a wonderful full circle moment. That’s what marketing is, knocking on the door going, “This is something you want to explore,” and not attached to the results.
To create another circle around that circle, I met him through networking on LinkedIn when I launched my podcast. I was meeting people like crazy. One thing that was happening to me all the time is people were saying yes. They were putting their chips on Ben and coming on a podcast that a lot of people said yes to before it even existed yet. The moment someone came to me with an ask, I said yes.
Real Business Connections: How can I serve you that I maybe haven’t served you yet?
My final question is, is there a question that you wished someone had asked you on a previous podcast or that I had asked you on this show that I haven’t asked you yet?
I ask questions like this once in a while, John. I stump people and I’m stumping myself. I probably thought about a question that hasn’t been asked.
Is there a question that you wish somebody would ask you, whether it’s about networking, charity, marketing, podcasting or anything?
How do I listen to John Livesay on your show?
The whole focus is on how can you be of service. I felt that as your guest and I strived to make you feel the same way. Welcome, cared about and surprise you with questions that maybe other people haven’t asked. That’s always been a goal of mine, doing a little deeper dive than maybe somebody else would’ve done, the preparation we talked about. If someone is intrigued and I’m sure many people are saying, “This guy sounds amazing. I want to have fun. I want some marketing that’s out of the box and someone who’s going to take the time to be empathetic to my needs,” what’s the best way for them to find you?
I want to connect and have a one-to-one conversation. I don’t have anyone running my social media. It’s just me so you’ll speak to me. To touch on that question, people have asked me this before but how can I help you? It always goes both ways. I never want the conversation to end at the end of a podcast conversation.
If there’s any way I can serve you, yes. If there’s any way you can serve me, yes. I want that everybody to be asking that question forever. How can I serve you that I maybe haven’t served you yet and find a way to collaborate? If anyone wants to connect with me, you can go to BalbertMarketing.com. The website is under construction for a little bit. It’s a landing page with all my links in one spot.
In there, you’ll get the podcast, social media and LinkedIn but reach out and send me a DM. Let’s figure out how we can work together. I found this in my past. I would listen to a podcast, I’d love it and six weeks later, nothing happened. Forgot everything about it. If you’re reading this and you haven’t reached out to John yet, reach out to him. Say hello. You can reach out to me as well but subscribe. Start a conversation and we’d be humbled to chat with you.
Ben, thanks for bringing your wonderful story and warmth to the episode. It’s been great.
Thanks, John.
Important Links
- Ben Albert
- Real Business Connections
- Podcast – Past Episode on Real Business Connections featuring John Livesay
- Giant Panda Guerilla Dub Squad
- Chris Van Vliet – Past Episode on Real Business Connections
- Alzheimer’s Association
- Cystic Fibrosis Foundation
- Better Selling Through Storytelling Method Online Course
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Personal Socrates With Marc Champagne
Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments
As humans, we tend to lean on emotions when reacting to everything that’s happening personally and professionally. We get carried away and come up with our own narrative in our heads. And with all the noise around us, it’s easy to give in, get stressed, lose our identity and lose focus on what we were trying to achieve. If your plans are not working out and the reset button is out of sight, this is the podcast for you. Marc Champagne shares mental fitness practices and reflective questions to help you find your way back to the right track. So tune in and learn how you can tap into your Personal Socrates and find clarity and intentionality.
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Listen to the podcast here
Personal Socrates With Marc Champagne
Our guest on the show is Marc Champagne, the author of Personal Socrates. In that book, he interviews two people that have also been on the show, Cal Fussman and Chip Conley. We have lots of mutual friends. His big takeaway is how important it is to make time for quiet reflection. When he was out of a job and trying to figure out what he was going to do next, he said his full-time job was working on his mind. Enjoy the episode.
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Our guest is Marc Champagne who unpacks the mental fitness practices and reflective questions, shaping the lives of some of the most successful and brilliant thinkers in the world. He is the author of Personal Socrates, a bestselling book exploring the pointed questions that stimulate our mental fitness and teach us how to direct our internal narrative to work for us instead of against us. He studies the prompts and practices of legends such as Kobe Bryant, Maya Angelou, Coco Chanel, Stephen Hawking and our mutual friend, Cal Fussman.
He is the host of the Top 50 rated podcast Behind The Human and cofounded the journaling app Kyō, which reached 86.9 million people without any paid advertising. He studied mental fitness practices for over a decade and consults with Fortune 500 companies as a mental fitness strategist and practitioner. His favorite quote is, “We are all one question away from a different life.” Marc, welcome to the show.
Thank you, John. What an intro. I am jazzed to be here.
I always comment when something is so impressive and then it’s 86.9 million. We’re almost at 87 million. This is hilarious. It only shows your integrity to be so specific. Before we get into this wonderful book, which you were kind enough to send me a copy of and I was commenting on the packaging and these interviews are fascinating, it’s one of the things I so enjoyed reading on my trip. I could pick and choose where I wanted to go. I want to hear a little bit more about your story. You talk about it in your book but if you can start your story earlier, in high school, college or wherever you want that you got this entrepreneurial bug.
The entrepreneurial bug was never there at the beginning, to be honest. At least, I think that was the case. I remember I didn’t come out of university thinking, “I’m going to start my business or anything like that.” I wanted to get into sales. I had an uncle in the Toronto area and I was from a smaller city four hours outside of Toronto. It’s a mining blue-collar town. It wasn’t exposed to the world of business and sales. As a young kid, I used to spend the summers in Toronto with my aunt and uncle. My aunt was a VP over at Sharp Electronics and my uncle was the Candyman. He used to work for Hershey. Anytime he would show up, the trunk of the car would open and it was a party.
What I was interested in was the connection with all these different people, specifically with my uncle. He was one of those people that had a certain pulse and energy in the room that you had a good time with. You wanted to continue the conversation. He used to pick me up early in the morning and we’d go for these coffees. He got a hot chocolate for me and this was before university. He would pepper me with questions. “How are you doing? How is your grandmother? When’s the last time you went for a visit?”
[bctt tweet=”We are either in thrive or survive mindset.” username=”John_Livesay”]
The more I reflect on the path that I’m on and this lens of living life through a curious mind and having a book that’s called Personal Socrates loaded full of questions, it was those early days of being asked the questions and pausing to start to think and be more curious that fueled that journey into where I’m at. Before that, out of school, it was sales, which is asking a lot of different questions, being curious and trying to be as present as possible.
I had stints in analytics and market research until eventually, I got to this point which is where I was aiming for, get into product management and brand management in the healthcare space. While I was doing all of that, I had these mental fitness practices in the morning, which I wasn’t calling mental fitness because I didn’t have a terminology for it but it was essentially reading positive, uplifting content early in the morning before starting my day to put my mind in a state that was thriving, motivated or excited. It started when I was in sales because I remember at that time, they used to hire batches of people essentially.
We’d all be trained up in a matter of a few weeks altogether. I’m thinking, “If this is a sales role, how am I going to stand out of the pack if we’re all being trained in the same way?” That’s what sparked these early morning mental nutrition sessions essentially. I quickly started to realize that it doesn’t matter whether I was reading Success Magazine or biographies. Everyone that was coming up had this time where they were prioritizing reflection and journaling. I would write those questions down that they were leaving in the interviews or books. I would write or journal on them based on what was going on in my life. That essentially is what has led me to everything I’m doing.
If I heard you correctly, one of the big takeaways is to make time for quiet reflection. That’s one of the keys through lines you see from all these people that you’ve interviewed. Would that be accurate?
One hundred percent. It’s the superpower that a lot of people don’t talk about. Since the beginning of time, it doesn’t matter who you’re studying or where you’re going back. You can see those moments where there’s time. It was Ryan Holiday who brought this up in one of his books where US President Kennedy during the Cuban missile crisis was taking these long walks with no meetings just to think. It’s because we have the answers to our questions. We only need to let our minds process it.
Do you think there’s a connection there of where creative ideas come from? Even if we’re not under stress, people get their best ideas in the shower or taking a walk. Sometimes I’ll wake up in the middle of the night and have to have a notepad next to my bed. I’m like, “This wants to come through.” I hope it’s brilliant or I can read my handwriting in the morning. Sometimes they say your dreams are trying to communicate but when you have an idea like that, whether it’s a walk, a shower or the middle of the night, “What about this,” it keeps flowing, that only comes when you quiet down and for some of us, it’s when we’re sleeping.
Personal Socrates: We’re in a thriving state of mind where we feel energized, excited, and ready to go, or in a survival state of mind. We are never in both at the same time and we go back and forth all the time.
Sleeping, in the shower or doing some exercise where you’re in a flow state. The consistent thing that’s not present is typically that negative looping, fear state or anxiousness. It’s all of the things that arise when you turn on the news or hit social media. We’re getting hit day in and day out with that energy because it’s hard. We’re only ever in one of these states of mind. We’re either in the thriving state of mind where we feel energized, excited and ready to go or in a survival state of mind. We’re never in both at the same time.
We go back and forth all the time but the key is that can we recognize when we’re in those states of, “I’m feeling anxious and tight,” and acknowledge that and slow down. This is where the mental fitness stuff helps. You release that and get back into that state. When you’re sleeping, you’re typically not fighting to survive.
I love that a lot. I had an experience myself where I was dealing with so many challenges and phone calls. I’m trying to get my mom’s healthcare issues handled. I’m sitting in the parking lot of the dry cleaners taking call after call, responding to text questions and this and that. There are so many moving pieces and your brain is going, “What if this doesn’t happen and then that can happen?” If I reflect on that, I’m like, “That was a survival mode.”
When you’re in that mode, your brain can’t even retain information. It’s like somebody asked me a question and five minutes later, I’ve already forgotten what they asked me or what I’m supposed to do next. I’m writing something down every five seconds. If I could, at that point go mentally fit, I’m being stretched and I was already not resting, to begin with. It’s like an athlete.
It’s the standard state for most of the population, myself included.
We’re already a step behind. It’s like trying to run a marathon and you haven’t been training. It’s the same thing with mental fitness. Unless you’re giving yourself some downtime to replenish the tank, it keeps getting more deleted, is what I’m hearing.
[bctt tweet=”At any point, we are one question away from a different life. ” username=”John_Livesay”]
Let’s use your example as a use case because outside of the specific details related to your mother, there are a lot of similarities there. There are a lot of moving parts, decisions and actions to be taken. The stakes are high. It’s a situation that came somewhat out of the left field and rocks your routine and all of those things. That could be most people’s days.
Let’s put you back in the car at that moment and even take a few deep breaths to reset the body and slow it down. Often, you’re probably sitting there a little bit crunched over and tight. You can notice yourself doing that even working at your computer. You loosen up a bit, take a few deep breaths and that often resets things. This is where the prompts come in. “What is within my control in this situation?”
Logically, what’s the best next step in breaking down a couple of those steps that you have full control over like, “I need to do this.” You can layer on. This stuff is not new. This is coming back into stoicism practices but it’s a moment. Everything isn’t impermanent. A perspective shift of, “This sucks. No doubt. This is a rocky routine but this isn’t permanent.” In the blip of your entire life and for everyone reading, when we’re in these high-stress situations, it’s a line in the chapter. It’s not even the chapter often.
Sometimes it’s subtle shifts. This is what I was picking up in the reading in the early morning. You’re reading these passages and all of a sudden, whatever is going on in your world is put into a different perspective. It allows you then to step into the day or wherever you’re at in the day and continue on your terms versus staying in that loop. That loop is where there’s so much unnecessary mental suffering that we all put ourselves through.
Speaking of suffering, let’s hear the story of your business.
You had to hype up that big number, didn’t you?
Personal Socrates: Loosen up a bit and take a few deep breaths. That often resets things and helps you assess what’s within your control.
Yes. That’s the dream of a lot of entrepreneurs. Any hero, and you’re the hero on the show, has its set of challenges. There’s even a whole term about the valley of despair or the trough of despair. I’m thinking when people hear this story, they’re going to say, “That’s a real trough of despair.” Also, how this mental fitness, if it worked for you to get out of that, might work for me. That’s why there’s a real value in the way you write about it in the book. It is so engaging like a James Bond movie. Set the stage for us. Give us when this all started and what happened.
Thank you, John. That’s high praise from the story master himself. The stage was simply this. I found myself about three years into the journey. I had left this stable career in the healthcare space. I had this idea for a mental fitness app and specifically something very similar to what you can expect with a Headspace or Calm app where they guide you into meditation. At that time, there was nothing that would do that from a reflection standpoint or modern-day journaling.
That’s what Kyō was. I left that corporate space after doing some due diligence, testing and seeing that there was a market for it and went all in. After over probably two years is where I found myself sitting in this co-working space in Toronto, Canada. I’ve got the Apple dashboard up showing all the metrics for the app. I’m looking at one number and it’s 86.9 million. I’m specific with the number because I can never forget that number.
I’m looking at this and the next step is to hit delete from App Store. All the wrong questions start flying through my mind. How could we fail at such a colossal level? Most apps don’t even reach the eyeballs of a handful of people given the volume of apps and here we are. We had all of those Apps Store impressions. I’m deleting it. The flashbacks of my ex-colleagues that I was telling about this new idea and that I was leaving to pursue it and how they’re like, “You’re so courageous,” it’s almost like they wanted to say, “I have an idea too but good on you for doing it.” Now, what am I going to say?
There’s a whole story behind it and essentially, the business model of that app failed. I’m sure, we probably could have stuck around and figured it out but we were out of cash and mental capacity. Being in the space of mental fitness, I was starting to feel like a hypocrite. “How can I be trying my best to help as many people out there when I feel like my mind is about to explode given the stress of where we were at?” It felt like the right thing to do, even though at the moment, it blew up my world because it was a moment where essentially, it felt like I was deleting my identity for the last few years.
That is everything right there. I know that when I got laid off. After fifteen years, I felt like I lost my identity, not only my job. People who focus on their careers can relate to this as a challenge. “When something I’ve worked on and put my heart and soul into goes away for whatever reason, who am I without that title, job or all those success metrics?” That is why that story is so global and touching. As a society, you are what you drive, live, your job title and business card. “I am so and so.” Usually, it’s followed by your title.
[bctt tweet=”Do everything possible to start the day in a motivated state.” username=”John_Livesay”]
People go, “That’s the guy that started Kyō or Daily Calm.” It’d be like Tesla going out of business for Elon Musk. You’d be like, “He’s got some other things going on.” I’m sure that would be challenging. Part of why I wanted to interview you is this perception that the nonstop running, the avoidance of the quiet reflection, in my opinion, watching myself and others, is based on a fear of, “It’s never going to be enough. I can never rest on my laurels because the minute I do, it’s all going to fall apart and I’m going to be homeless.” You catastrophize everything.
You’re having all this incredible growth. There must’ve been a moment when you congratulated yourselves for achieving a goal, hitting a certain number and the press is coming. Not that you got cocky or took your eye off the ball. It goes back to health issues. I remember watching my dad die several years ago and realized, “Sometimes the doctors can do everything right. He can take his medicines on time and he still is going to die.”
That was the hardest part of that journey for me because I felt like anyone that has put their heart and soul into a project or a company and given everything, how could it come to the point where I have to shut that down?
It almost doesn’t seem logical, let alone fair.
It’s not fair. Once I was able to stabilize my mind, which took some time and I’m happy to share how that came to be, but in retrospect, the way I look at it coming back to that chapter of my life, that for sure was a chapter. That was a good chunk but it was a chapter into almost writing a new story for myself because, at the same time, I was hitting delete. I went into that project with the question, “What’s the worst that can happen?” If it all explodes and doesn’t work, I’m not leaving my job unhappy. I’m pursuing something so I don’t have regrets about not having tried it. During that journey, I realized that this is 100% the work that I need to be doing.
Delete the app and shut down the business. The backup plan does not feel aligned. Now, what? That’s when it felt like all hope was essentially pulled out of the wind out of my sails. Those were the dark moments but also, the moments where I came to that realization. I’m sure you saw the quote on the back of the book that we’re all one question away from a different life. Had it not been for the question that I was gifted by the gentleman that’s on the cover and a mutual friend of ours, Chip Conley, I don’t know where I would be.
Personal Socrates: If you just take the first step in your marathon training or your running training, then all of a sudden it becomes easier and easier and you’re doing it intuitively.
I was headed into a depression because I worked in mental health before that in my past life. I saw the signs. I felt physically sick in the morning waking up and not knowing. It was the first time in my life that I didn’t have a plan. I had no idea. Everything blew up and I was left rudderless trying to figure out, “What am I going to do?”
Let’s paint the exposition a little bit. It’s not like you’re this 25-year-old single guy and no one’s depending on you. You’re married and have a child.
I’m married and we have a child. We’re in Toronto, the most expensive city in Canada and in a place that was always supposed to be temporary. We were before that living in Montreal. We sold our condo and rented this place.
That’s the exposition that I love reading about in the book. The pain of all of that is like, “That’s gone. Why am I here? I’m in the wrong city. Everything I’m doing is wrong.”
It felt hopeless. It was a physically and mentally painful time but because of the work and exposure to having interviewed hundreds of people in this space, they took that time to still their minds. They were asking a very different set of questions. They weren’t asking questions like the ones that I was asking that were driving me into a hole like, “How could it fail at such a colossal level?” There are no issues with asking why-type questions to see where you can learn and develop. Those are dangerous questions that can loop and continue to keep you in there.
It’s the difference between, “I made a mistake and I’m a bad person. I’m a stupid person. I’m worthless.” That distinction is getting a C in school and you’re not a D person. You had all these interviews as part of your company that you had done for the app and that’s how you were able to turn this into a book. Is that how that evolved?
[bctt tweet=”My full time job was working on my mind. – Marc Champagne” username=”John_Livesay”]
Yes, but before that though, while I was in that spiral, the key priority that I focused on was I said, “I have to continue and keep the gym membership even though I can’t afford it.” I need that morning time to do everything possible to start the day in somewhat of a motivated state.
It’s a level of self-love going on there. It’s not selfishness and this is what I want the readers to take away from this. There’s a difference between, “I’m going to go get a facial and I’m keeping my gym membership for my sanity.” I’m not going to splurge on a two-week vacation when I don’t have money coming in but I need this. If I don’t have this foundation and this stress release, everything is going to get even worse and not better.
My full-time job was on my mind during that time. It had to be because it was those sessions at the gym and in the middle of the day when I felt like the pressure was rising, I would stop, take a quick walk around that neighborhood and reset. It was in those moments where the realization was made, “Who have I interviewed or networked do I feel comfortable asking for some advice?” That’s when I wrote the email to Chip Conley explaining a bit of the background of what happened. As you know, Chip, replies to all these things usually in short emails but it was probably the shortest and the most impactful email. It’s because he provided a question. He said, “What do you want for your life?”
For me, that was the question that paused the loop and the path into depression and led to many other questions like, “If this is what I want, what does my day look like? Who do I need to speak to?” It started to bring the plan back, the motivation, the hope and all of that. That’s when the idea sparked for the book. I have been collecting and curating questions for years because of the business and the podcast.
I still do that on the show but this was the first time that I’ve ever been in a situation where one question changed everything. I felt like the app was a medium in the work that I’m still doing. If you were able to see the app, you’d probably be like, “The book is similar in the sense of the objective of providing interesting narratives with powerful questions and practices.” That’s what the app was.
That’s the other big takeaway I want to pause for a second for everyone to connect those dots. The time, the creativity and the outcomes of things you’ve worked on that may not still exist are not worthless. They’re still in you and they can be repurposed and make you the Phoenix of coming out of all of that, which is what your story is and that’s why it’s so powerful. Was there someone you interviewed? Some of these people are alive and someone people were gone. Was there anybody you wanted to interview that you’re like, “That’s a big wish list,” and when they said yes, it even exceeded your expectations?
Personal Socrates: Questions That Will Upgrade Your Life from Legends & World-Class Performers
Cal Fussman for sure. Cal’s the opening chapter of the book for a reason. I didn’t put two and two together but you said a couple of lines about the conversation you have with Cal. I was like, “I listened to that episode.” It probably was when all this stuff was going around in my life. During those walks and gym sessions, I had podcasts in my ear very strategically picked. I wasn’t listening to long rambles on Joe Rogan. I was listening to stuff that I knew would be uplifting and motivating.
I sent a cold email to Cal because his shows were so motivating and are needed in that mental state that I was in. I asked him to come to the show and he agreed. It was one of those moments that I write about in his chapter. I’ll never forget this because I was still in that house in Toronto. I was at the kitchen table. I almost unplugged the fridge because I don’t want to make any noise. No one can see us but I’m in a podcast recording booth at this point. We’ve evolved a bit but I remember Cal shows up on the screen.
From someone that considers himself an interviewer or someone that wants to continue down that track, he’s one of the best. I remember I asked the first question and all I could think about was, “I’m going to mute the mic, shut the hell up and let him go.” That was a powerful moment. As the book started to materialize and I started to look at a mix of the people that I had interviewed that would be good for those chapters, Cal came to mind and full circle, which was a beautiful moment for me. I’m still very grateful for when I sent him the book, he invited me on his show and that hit the heart.
That’s a big moment. That show has had so many incredible people on it. To be in the same category has always been a thrill for me as well. Things are fantastic. Not only is the book a hit but companies are hiring you to come in and give mental fitness to their teams. Tell us what else is going on and who’s your ideal audience.
The team front is exciting. I wish I had this stuff when I was in sales or product management. I’m coming back to some of those companies I used to work at as a mental fitness strategist essentially and showing what’s possible. If I think of some of the things that I used to do putting together these brand strategies on these $100 million brands, I want my mind to be as clear, focused and thriving as possible so that I can think at my best, feel good and have a good time. That’s what these practices do.
For me, it’s a mix of showing, “Let’s take a look individually at your rituals and routines or how your days are structured and set up. Let’s first spend some time getting clear on where you’re at and where you want to be personal but also with your business and the brand. It’s no different. Let’s get intentional with, ‘If this is where you want to be.’” It’s like when I was left with the question, “What do you want for your life?” “If this is where I want it to be, then what do I need to do? How do my habits, systems and my calendar support that journey?” Lots of times when we slow down to look, we’re almost self-sabotaging.
[bctt tweet=”When the mind stops working, so does the business and the brand.” username=”John_Livesay”]
It’s almost like if you use the analogy of, “I want to get physically fit, not only mentally fit,” I look at my calendar of activities, “Did I go swim, go to the gym or do anything physical? Did I stop at Amy’s Ice Creams three times a week? Did I order pizza twice a week? Is that the calendar of someone who’s into fitness?” Probably not. It’s the same for mental fitness. I love this so much.
Marc, you’ve given us so many quotes and questions. I can’t wait to share them all. “My full-time job was my mind,” has got to be one of my all-time favorite quotes from anyone who’s ever been between jobs. If people want to find out more about the book and you or hire you to come in and get the team mentally fit, where should they go?
Thank you so much. We could talk for hours so this was a treat. BehindTheHuman.com is my site and that’s the book, the podcast and all the details for the teams I’ve been working on. If you’re one of those teams, I’d love to chat with you. At the end of the day, when a mind stops working so does the business and the brand or whatever is around that. I feel that having gone through all of this, it almost feels like a moral obligation to get these practices out because they’re all accessible.
It’s only a matter of reaching people on the other side with a narrative that makes sense and is relatable. Why I keep the podcast running is because I always have new narratives, new stories and entry points. If you take the first step in your marathon or running training, all of a sudden, it becomes easier. You’re doing it intuitively. When we can train our minds like that, we feel good.
“When the mind stops working so does the business.” That’s the mic drop moment. Thanks again, Marc.
Thank you.
Important Links
- Personal Socrates
- Cal Fussman – Previous Episode
- Chip Conley – Previous Episode
- Behind The Human – Apple Podcasts
- Kyō
- Better Selling Through Storytelling Method Online Course
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The Selling Well With Mark Cox
Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments
Sales is a critical part of any business. So, how do you ensure your sales team is supported so they can perform at their best? Here to share his insight is Mark Cox, the Chief Revenue Officer of In the Funnel Sales Coaching and podcast host of The Selling Well. Joining John Livesay, Mark highlights the impact of mindset on performance by looking into how the sales process is about working together with your team and a relentless focus on the client’s needs. Stay tuned as he shares advice for sales leaders on bringing important strategies to propel your team and your business forward.
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Listen to the podcast here
The Selling Well With Mark Cox
Our guest is Mark Cox who’s the Founder of In The Funnel, which is all about helping sales teams become more productive. He said, “Don’t try to describe a color no one has ever seen before when you are painting a picture, and no one ever goes to a sales call and says, ‘Did I over prepare for that?’” Instead, he said, “You must have a relentless focus on what the client needs.” Enjoy the episode.
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Our guest is Mark Cox, who has sold, structured, and negotiated some of the largest single-family transactions in North America, including a $1 billion transaction with the top US bank. After several years working for large corporations, he founded In The Funnel, ITF, sales coaching with the mission to dramatically improve the performance of business-to-business sales teams.
With a focus on strategy, process, tools, and discipline, he has helped hundreds of companies achieve predictable double-digit sales growth by implementing the ITF proprietary sales playbook. He’s been named one of the leading sales consultants of 2022 by Selling Power Magazine. He’s also been appointed to partner with the Canadian Professional Sales Association with all of his training content being officially accredited. While he’s not coaching clients to sell better, he can also be found goaltending in the local hockey rink, playing drums, or doing fitness training. When he’s not doing all of that, he hosts his own podcast. It’s called The Selling Well. Welcome to the show, Mr. Cox.
First of all, thank you so much for inviting me here. I have never been as excited about my past as much as when you described it. It sounds so much more exciting when it comes from you.
We try to bring a little passion and energy to everything we described, edify our guests, make them feel welcome, and let the audience know how much of a treat they are in for, which is certainly the case with you. Before you start playing hockey and winning all kinds of sales awards, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into sales in the first place?
This is our second conversation and I was so looking forward to it. I will be honest. I fell into sales. During college and university, I got the opportunity to run a small business, these student franchise companies for painting, and so forth. Way back in the day, years ago, I had that opportunity, maybe even more. It changed my life. It made me realize that my heart that I’m probably an entrepreneur and I loved every aspect of it. It was crazy hard. It was my first introduction to sales.
Even back then, this organization at the time was called AAA Student Painters, and now it’s called the Student Works. They were so good at teaching and coaching on sales, making sure the whole conversation was about the client and their better future after having worked with you. Looking back, I’m amazed at how good that sales training was.
I partied my way through university for a few years, and when I graduated and was looking for a job after starting that company in a couple of different areas in North America, I went full-time into this student franchising. I ended up deciding I had to get back into the corporate world, and the one skill that was easy to translate was sales. I have been an entrepreneur.
When you are applying for a job or talking to somebody in HR about running a business, they have no idea what you are talking about. You are describing a color they have never seen. When you are talking about your capabilities in sales, they could sense that. I started selling photocopiers as my entrance into the corporate world into professional selling with a great company Kodak in the early-90s.
What a phenomenon that company was. Who would have ever predicted they would get out of business? It’s like Google going out of business. That had been around for so long and did so many things right. Also, Xerox had great sales training, I imagine.
They did. They are a good example on the business side. They never wanted to cannibalize their cash cow. When you study them as a business case now, they had traditional film, insanely profitable, and digital film was coming on the table. They invented it, but they’d never invest enough in it because they are always worried about cannibalizing the cash cow.
[bctt tweet=”Have a relentless focus on the clients’ needs.” username=”John_Livesay”]
While they waited to decide what to do, other companies cannibalized their cash cow. Agfa, Sony, and all these guys got into it, but we got hired and we went down to Rochester, New York, and the sales training program was 90 days. Put up in a beautiful townhouse, and we went to a marketing education center, which was a sales university. Each week you had some tests, demos, and recorded sales calls that were being graded. You were rated against the other 80 people in the program every week. Every week, they tapped a couple of people on the shoulder, and unfortunately, they had to go home.
Hearing that is so valuable for people who are in sales to realize that it is a profession like being a lawyer, doctor, professional athlete, or actor that there’s a structure to it, and there are people who don’t always graduate, especially in law school. Also, it helps your mindset go, “My confidence is going to be so much stronger because I’m not just learning product detail. I’m role-playing. I remember when I went through sales training, we were timed.” How long did it take you to give the person your business card in case they forgot your name?
It’s little subtle details like that of trying to anticipate somebody being embarrassed to have you repeat your name again, and you hand the business card back when people did that in a way that the person didn’t have to read it upside down. Taking in a lot of details, especially in my case, I was selling multimillion-dollar mainframe computers and there were so many different decision makers, the financial people, software people, and analyzing.
What I admire about your work is the structure and making sure people don’t forget a step. It’s ironic because if you are baking a cake and you leave out a major ingredient or have it at the wrong temperature, that doesn’t turn out. The same thing is true in sales. I would love you to speak to that. How important is it to have a process and then follow it?
Which mainframe company were you with? Which computer company were you with?
A company called Amdahl that was owned by Fujitsu.
I remember Amdahl. That was a great time to be selling those mainframes. Those were early days for large computing technology. It’s competitive, but those were great days indeed. You described a complex sale. Those were the earliest days of the complex sale with multiple people influencing the decision to move forward.
One of the important things now is that there are steps in any process. Edwards Deming has that comment. I will get the quote wrong but, “It’s not enough to work hard. You have to know what to do and then work hard.” There is this way that you try and engage somebody and build trust and credibility, and then earn the right to proceed with a discussion or conversation about them and their business.
Sales: It’s not enough to work hard. You actually have to know what to do and then work hard.
You can collaborate to figure out how you can help them get to a better future. Whatever that means for their company, and for that particular individual in the company because everybody has these personal and emotional things. They have these things they are trying to accomplish for their client. Whatever role you play in professional sales, whether you are that sales leader, that process is a lot about working with your team and ensuring that, the Liz Wiseman, you are multiplying their capabilities instead of diminishing them when you are trying to coach them and develop them that you are coaching them.
From the salesperson’s perspective, there’s this constant and relentless focus on, “How do I help the other side of the table run a better business?” If they believe your intent is always to help them and that you’ve got some skills, experience, capabilities, and resources to help them do that, I don’t think they go quiet on you. With sales development, the more junior roles in professional sales, but hard now, I do think the checklist and the coaching are so important for them because those poor folks get hired on, get completely lost and overwhelmed, and turn at a shocking rate.
You have a statistic that about 1/3 of salespeople are churned every year. The Great Resignation, the lack of training, overwhelm, and all of those cost companies so much money, doesn’t it?
It sure does. It’s shocking. It’s the bigger cost. You were gracious enough to ask me about my start in professional sales. When I started selling back in the day and I’m selling photocopiers, it was a pretty big deal to get my first corporate job. For my generation, that first start was important and everybody knows you are in that job, and you’ve told your parents or a peer group.
I couldn’t believe how badly I felt for these people at Kodak who got tapped on the shoulder because it didn’t work out. There were tears. This was a major thing and the embarrassment and the impact on self-esteem for young people. That’s where I think about it a lot with the sales teams that we are coaching and developing. We have this responsibility to enable their success.
They have to put the work in. Don’t get me wrong and it’s 51% then, but there are too many environments that have this sink or swim and we’ll hire 30 and hope 15 works out. I don’t like the impact on somebody’s self-esteem or their future when they have got a mishit with the first job they get out of college or university.
When you talk about self-esteem, one of my big purposes and mission now is to help as many people, but specifically, salespeople get off that self-esteem rollercoaster because you get so attached to your results, determining whether you feel like you are a worthy person, let alone worthy salesperson. You are up and down all day long, vetting when you make a sale or not. Many salespeople only focus on the noes and not the yeses. They don’t celebrate the yeses. They move on. Maybe they had a boss that said, “You are only as good as your last sale.” What advice do you give people to make sure they don’t get on that self-esteem rollercoaster?
I’m a big believer in focusing on the positive. I’m no different. Nobody can see us now but I got a little journal beside me here. I do, particularly on a Sunday, sit down and jot down a few of the great things that happen during the week because you and I are entrepreneurs, and the professional salespeople out there are entrepreneurs as well. So much happens in a given week, and you are always on to the next thing. We rarely take a pause and go, “Let’s jot down or write down in a journal all the amazing things that happened this week.” That’s a big one. I like to do that. I find it changes my mindset setting. It gives me energy and enthusiasm for the week.
[bctt tweet=”What is your intent when you meet. ” username=”John_Livesay”]
The second thing is in sales we have got a tough job. We do things and we are trying to help people. At the end of the day, we introduce people to something they’d never thought of before, that can help their business in a way maybe they have never even considered before, and we invite them to spend money that they hadn’t budgeted to spend oftentimes. It’s a pretty tough thing to do.
I’d rather focus on the activities that I can control. If I try and do the right things, the outcomes will come. We have been through this for a long time. We have done things and great things have happened for us that maybe we didn’t deserve it. It just came our way. There were a lot of other times when we put enormous amounts of work, heartache, stress, and commitment into something and it didn’t go our way. I do find that everything reverts to the mean in terms of a large enough sample size. Over the course of a career, it’ll even out.
That’s great advice, especially for somebody starting out. I remember when I was interviewing for a job selling digital ads and I had never done digital, only print. I was giving it my all. I learned how to put a PowerPoint presentation together because I used to have an assistant that did that. I did all this research, mock-up, and preparation for this interview.
A friend of mine said, “You are certainly putting in a lot of effort for one interview. What if you don’t get it? Aren’t you going to feel bad?” I said, “I’d feel bad if I didn’t give it my all,” but a lot of people say, “I’m going to give a 50% effort. If I don’t get it, I will not feel bad.” What do you think about that mindset?
It’s so obvious what the right answer is. Have you ever left a sales call or left a client meeting and said, “I over-prepared for that, what a mistake?” I will be honest with everybody. Even at this stage with what I do, I remember a couple of years back, we had a great sales development team and someone said, “We have got this company and they want to talk to you and all of this.” I had a quick chat with the CEO and whether he was distracted, doing three things at the same time, or something didn’t go very well, and he said, “Come and see me.”
I had very little hope for this and the only way I agreed to see him was I was thinking to myself, “He’s in the same building as my gym. I will go in and go see him, and then right after that, I will do my workout and go home.” I remember showing up for that meeting. This was a few years ago. I hadn’t had time for the proper prep.
When I walked into his boardroom, he had our website up online. He’d been watching our digital video testimonials. He’d been contemplating getting us in for sales consulting. I knew the prep he did for the meeting immediately as I walked in. He was more prepared for that meeting than I was and the confidence came right out of my feet. You know that feeling. This was a few years ago, so I should have known better by this point in time.
I probably came out of an event where I was coaching people on now doing the same thing. I always liked that idea, whether it was playing a game of hockey or working out. I like to develop that DNA that says, “I will give it 100%. I’m going to do my best.” Sometimes things are going to go well, and sometimes they are not going to go well, but I will try and coach myself on the mindset that says, “If it doesn’t go well but I did my best, I’m going to sleep like a baby.”
Sales: Have you ever left a sales call or left a client meeting and said, “Boy, I over-prepared for that. What a mistake!”?
A skill is like a muscle. You get stronger and stronger at those presentation skills and interview skills and nobody bats 1,000 for every goal. That big picture zooming out is key. Since you are a Canadian and you play hockey, is it the Wayne Gretzky quote that says, “You anticipate where the puck is going?”
Thank you for making me comfortable by using a Wayne Gretzky quote. That’s the only language we speak as you well know. He said he’s not looking where the puck went. He’s looking at where the puck’s going. The other quote he’s well known for is, “You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.” He was well-known that be shooting from behind the net and somehow would go in.
There’s a lot of positive there. One other note since you brought up our cultural hero, one of the things that he always said he learned when he was playing with a team called the Oilers and they were trying to win their first Stanley Cup. They were going against the team that had been on a roll, winning Stanley Cups, which was the New York Islanders in the US.
They, once again, lost to the Islanders in the final, and they were disappointed. As the Oilers left their dressing room, they had to walk by the Islander’s dressing room. They couldn’t believe what they saw. They saw the Islanders team walking around on crutches. Many of them had limbs in casts. What they realized was they were all warriors playing wounded, giving an enormous amount of commitment, and that woke up the Oilers. They didn’t walk away saying, “We are so talented. We’ll beat them next year.”
They started the next season saying, “We have learned something here about what commitment it takes to win.” They showed us. Thank you, Islanders. In the following year, they beat the Islanders in the final, and the commitment, and all those kinds of good things. I bring it up. When we were talking about self-esteem, sometimes when we have a failure in life, we see it as this scarlet letter.
I have had those failure failures as much as anybody else. When I was in my twenties, I started a business. It failed. It wasn’t like now. Now any startup that fails, it’s like a badge of honor. Back then, it was just a failure. That ever sit with me for a long time. It was because I had a bit of a mindset issue where instead of seeing it as an opportunity to learn, I used it as a judgment against myself and that stung. There’s this real opportunity for all of us to think about that, particularly in sales. If something goes bad, what can I learn from it to apply for the next time?
We talked about two companies we worked for before. In your case, it’s Kodak. In my case, it’s Amdahl. They are no longer here. What if those companies or us as entrepreneurs that are reading, start taking that Wayne Gretzky quote to heart and go, “Where’s the market going? Are print sales dying down? Maybe I need to learn digital. Are we ever going to be able to replace the number of digital sales with print sales? I don’t see a way path for that. What else can we do?”
That anticipation of what clients are needing before it becomes so obvious that the competition’s figured it out and you don’t have a product or whatever it is that’s causing you not to win is valuable. Doctors have meetings after they lose a patient to try and figure out what went wrong, learn from that every time, no finger-pointing. I don’t hear a lot of companies doing that in sales when they lose a sale. It’s a lot of finger-pointing. A lot of, “They beat us on price,” or whatever, and then move on. That’s not an in-depth analysis, is it?
[bctt tweet=”Being good at sales solves any other problem in a business for the most part because it’s going to bring revenue in the front door. It’s critically important. ” username=”John_Livesay”]
It’s not. Maybe it’s because some of those environments aren’t psychologically safe. I have no problem. Everybody jokes that I’m self-deprecating most of the time, but it’s also easy to be self-deprecating when you are running everything. Nobody’s judging me and I don’t feel it that way. I want to want to get better.
One of the things we have to think about is if we are going to do a loss review on an account or even do a strategy workshop, we have to go in and understand the rules of conduct. If we want to work on some collaboration or strategize on an account or a big deal we are working on, that meeting isn’t inspection and judgment about what the quarterback of the deal has or hasn’t done.
There might be a time for a little coaching there but put it into a different meeting. If you kick those things off and it’s not about an inspection or judgment, let’s assume you’ve got three other sharp people in a room here as your think tank to help. Maybe that’s a big topic in sales these days. Do we have environments where there’s psychological safety?
Let me ask a really basic question. Sometimes I have worked with sales teams. First of all, not everyone thinks of themselves as a sales team. I have worked with architects who don’t like to consider themselves sales and they have to go in and present. Some of them are so uncomfortable even standing up to speak. “Can’t I just stay seated and read my notes?” At a certain point, you go because I have told you all the reasons to stand up. Your energy changes. You come up in the room on and on. How do you work with people who don’t even want to stand up?
I will be honest with you. I may not be the biggest expert on that, but I do like to try and focus on the positives. I want to make sure that anyone we are working with knows our intent. A fellow by the name of Dr. Nick Morgan has got a couple of books out. His principle is he says, “When we meet someone, what we are always trying to assess is what’s their intent.” It goes back hundreds and hundreds of years that we shake hands. Remember when we shake hands? It’s to prove I don’t have a weapon where I’m going to club you.
To that extent, I’m always trying to make sure that folks understand the intent is only to help to make you better, but if that’s what you say, then you have to back it up. Am I saying that? I’m walking out of the meeting going, “Mark needs a little work here.” Am I being upfront and honest and practicing Kim Scott’s Radical Candor, but doing it so that you are not leaving a bruise? There’s a real art to that.
Feedback without leaving a bruise is one of my favorite things that you said. You also talk about virtual selling and certainly, with the pandemic, that was a big issue. One of my clients said, “Can you teach my sales team how to look and sound good on Zoom? They are uncomfortable presenting on camera,” especially if the client has their camera off.
It was interesting because I was talking to some of those people and they said, “What if a competitor is listening in?” They started making up all these worst-case scenarios. What if the doctor is not even listening? I’m like, “I don’t think virtual selling is going away. It’s going to be a hybrid like this return to the office.”
Sales: Sometimes things are going to go well and sometimes they’re not going to go well, but try and coach yourself in a mindset that says, “if it doesn’t go well, but I did my best, I’m going to sleep like a baby.”
They will be some people, all virtual, everybody, every day, 9:00 to 5:00, but this hybrid 3 days in 2 days off. We’ll continue the need to be good at virtual selling. That’s one of the things you’ve written about, and it’s one of the pieces of training you offer. Tease us a little bit with what you give people that help them in those situations.
Remember when we were kids and the first time you heard your own recorded voice? We can’t stand it and it’s, “I don’t sound that bad.” When I’m doing a face-to-face sales call, nobody’s recording it. I’m not watching myself in real time. You and I do these podcasts and I’m not sure how many of your podcasts you listen to after the podcast from start to finish, but it’s not that much fun.
We all have these kinds of barriers. None of us like seeing ourselves on camera or hearing our voices. A few of us who do become actors in Hollywood. Maybe you need that personality. A couple of thoughts for the meeting, there’s the Albert Mehrabian stuff that says, “A lot of communication is non-verbal.” With all of your training, you are much more of an expert in that area than me, but ridiculous percentages, well north of 80% of non-verbal communications. Where you are trying to make a connection, it’s important. A Zoom call or a video call sound, believe it or not, is more important than the visual.
It’s far more annoying if you can’t hear the person or there’s background noise and all of those kinds of good things. For all the salespeople out there, think of this. Where are you more compelling? If I’m trying to convince somebody and build a relationship and trust, is it best that I’m physically in their building, or do I want to pick up the phone? Easy answer. I have got to be in the building.
Virtual selling was a bit of a bridge between the phone and being in person. It’s the next best thing. If our intent is to make a connection, communicate clearly, demonstrate some energy and enthusiasm, and also play off some cues of other people, you’ve got to have the camera on. You got to be in the center of the screen. For some, they should be able to see your hands when you are on that call.
There are a bunch of subconscious ticks. Somebody else’s brain is going to be wondering about things, so you’ve got to be cognitive. Stress comes into play if you’ve got a complicated background. They can’t see your hands. You are not staring into the camera. You are not squaring the screen. For all of those reasons, remember that at the beginning of the pandemic, that’s why we are all so exhausted after five hours of meetings. Our brain was processing everything. When you are in a big group and you have the gallery view, so you can see twenty people at a time, it makes your brain tired subconsciously.
There are a lot of those things that come into play, and the only thing I can say to folks on the video side is that we have to get over it. None of us like ourselves on video. I’m not sure exactly why a lot of psychological stuff is in there, but it is critical for a connection. Try and stare into your camera, which is quite awkward because I can’t see you perfectly when I’m staring into my camera, but for you to feel a connection to me, you have to see my eyes and vice versa. Those are a couple of quick tips on the virtual side.
You’ve covered so many great tips. There’s no such thing as ever being over-prepared to relentlessly focus to my favorite, “Give feedback without leaving a bruise,” and now these great virtual tips. Do you have a last thought or quote you’d like to leave us with?
Sales: It’s a bit of a responsibility for all of us in sales today to make sure it moves forward as a profession and not a trade.
My first thought is to thank you, John. Your books are fantastic in terms of the importance of storytelling in sales. I love your focus on helping the self-esteem of salespeople. My last thought for everybody is that it’s a bit of responsibility for all of us in sales to make sure it moves forward as a profession and not a trade.
Applying that focus and some discipline, our relentless focus is on putting a client first or a prospect first and making it all about them. For the most part in most businesses now, the most important line item on a P&L is the revenue. Being good at sales solves any other problem in a business for the most part because it’s going to bring revenue in the front door. It’s critically important. It’s going to continue to be so, and it’s been a pleasure connecting with you again. I appreciate being a guest on your amazing show.
Thanks. If people want to reach out to you, they can find you at InTheFunnel.com where they can learn more about your sales workshops and your wonderful podcast, and explore learning how to be better at sales and drive that bottom line. Mark, thanks so much.
John, thank you. We’ll talk again for sure.
Important Links
- In The Funnel
- The Selling Well
- Radical Candor
- Better Selling Through Storytelling Method Online Course
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