Online Courses Create Freedom By Teaching Your Gifts With Danny Iny

Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments

08.09.21

Online courses are becoming more common today. These courses have become a way to share your gifts with others. John Livesay is joined by Mirasee CEO and bestselling author Danny Iny as they discuss sharing your gift and the freedom provided by online courses. Danny talks about the art of telling a story and using it to engage people and committing to learning. Learn how to be known for that one thing with which you can give the most value to the world.

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Online Courses Create Freedom By Teaching Your Gifts With Danny Iny

Danny Iny is the guest on The Successful Pitch. He’s known for being an expert at online courses but as you’ll find out he’s an expert in many other things as well. He talks about what you want people to be able to do after they’ve taken your course. How well do you want them to do it and under what circumstances are they going to be able to perform? He says, “The other key is learning about something is different than living it.” Find out why he says that a quality course is like a fine piece of art. Enjoy the episode.

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Our guest is Danny Iny, the Founder and CEO of Mirasee, which is a leading voice in the world of online courses. He’s been featured in the Harvard Business Review, Entrepreneur and contributes regularly to publications including Inc., Forbes and Business Insider. He’s spoken at institutions like Yale University and organizations like Google. His work on strategy training won special recognition from Fast Company as a world-changing idea. He’s also the author of Online Courses: How to Create Freedom by Teaching Your Gift. Welcome to the show, Danny.  

[bctt tweet=”A quality course is like a piece of art.” username=”John_Livesay”]

John, thank you so much for having me. I’m super excited to be here. 

I love that enthusiasm and energy. One of my favorite questions for my guests is to tell us your own story of origin. You can go back to childhood, school or wherever you want but was this process something that your parents said or did. Have you always loved learning? I’m fascinated to hear how this journey began. 

I only started thinking of myself as an entrepreneur in the mid-twenties, which is funny because I dropped out of school at fifteen to start my first business. I’ve been an entrepreneur for longer than my adult life. Here’s the first entrepreneurial experience that I can remember. I was in the seventh grade. I was twelve years old and there was a cafeteria at my school and they had different lunch options. My parents would give me $2 to get lunch for the day, which got you the typical option but I like the $3 option. 

Online Courses: The only people who are perpetually starting a business are the ones who are not very good entrepreneurs.

It shows us how back in time this is because I don’t think kids can get anything for $3 now. 

I’m sure it was subsidized but this was a little while ago. I wanted the $3 option and I noticed that my friend would get his lunch and he would get a soda, which was $1. He would get usually a Coke or Sprite but he was a good friend. I knew that he didn’t especially like Coke or Sprite. He liked cream soda, which they didn’t sell at the cafeteria. I figured out that I could get a rack of those cans of cream soda from Costco and it would cost me $0.15 or whatever and I could sell a soda to my friend for $1. He gets what he wants to drink for the same price and now I can afford my $3 lunch. At the time, people would be like, “You’re charging your friend for a drink?” I’m like, “He’s paying the money anyway. This way, he’s getting what he wants.” This is how I’ve always thought of entrepreneurship. I didn’t see myself as an entrepreneur. I was looking for opportunities and solving problems.  

[bctt tweet=”What do I want people to be able to do after working with me?” username=”John_Livesay”]

That word wasn’t anything I heard in school. Everyone I knew, even if they did have their own business, they owned a dry cleaner or an air conditioning company. It was nothing in tech or online because that wasn’t happening then. It was either you go work for a company or your family business. The entrepreneurial part of it was not solving a problem. It was a business that an individual owned. It’s a fascinating thing to think of.  

It makes sense if you think about it. Let’s presume you’re good at this entrepreneurship thing. The starting of the business takes a small amount of time and the running of the business takes a long amount of time. The only people who are perpetually starting businesses are the ones who are not good at it. Any entrepreneur who’s any good that you know, you’re most likely to know them in the stage where they’re running the business because that’s most of the time that they spend in that interaction. 

Teach and Grow Rich: Share Your Knowledge to Create Global Impact, Freedom and Wealth

Let’s go from that in your journey of Mirasee, which is about reimagining business in general. You have seven core values. Many people may have values. They don’t post them. They don’t think about them. They don’t put them into action. You and I were chatting before the show about how impressed I am that you do put your values into action. Openness, transparency, respect, appreciation, humility and empowering other people, I wanted to see if there was a story behind how these values came about. Do they all come at once? Was it something that continued to evolve? 

There is a story. In the fairly early days of this business, we had a different name at the time because we rebranded a few years into it when we realized the original name sucked. We had a team of 7 or 13. We were small at the time. We were doing a company retreat. I was going to say people flew in. At the time, everyone’s local. This was a long time ago. We’re in the chalet up north and we’re codifying our values. The way we did that and this is learned from a gentleman named Patrick Lencioni. We start by asking everyone, “Take a piece of paper and write down the name of 1 or 2 people on the team who exemplify what it is to work here. This is private. You’re not sharing this with anyone. This is for you as a reference point.” You’re going to write down for yourself what are the things about these people that make them exemplify what it is to be here.  

We took that list, put it up on the board and we have 111 things. You collapse the list because the same thing shows up seven times with different languages and you start sorting it. You cross off the aspirational things. It’s like, “It’s not so much that this is who we are. This is who we wish we were.” That’s not a core value. You cross off the things that are hygiene factors like, “Showering won’t make you happy but not showering will make you miserable.” There are things that don’t exemplify who you are. It’s a pay-to-play in the industry. We promptly respond to our customer service emails. Any decent company has to do that. That’s not a special unique thing so we cross off the hygiene factors. 

[bctt tweet=”A quality course is like a piece of art. It’s only good in the eye of the beholder. There’s no such thing as an objectively good course. ” username=”John_Livesay”]

We cross off the accidental stuff. For example, at the time, almost everyone who worked at the company was into board games. That wasn’t a core value. That happened to be the case. It was a happy accident. We cross all those out and what’s left is a candidate for a core value and we haggle, negotiate and we’re like, “What is most important to us to codify?” We arrived at six core values. Those were our values for a long time and they are real and substantive. We talk about them all the time. We acknowledge each other for them. It’s not a poster on the wall, although it is a poster on the wall behind me.  

Over several years, we started noticing that there were a few ways in which our values were being misunderstood by people who were newer to the organization because they didn’t have all the context to understand it. That’s when we looked at those values and we’re like, “Let’s clarify the language here. Let’s pick this up there. This one has to split in two.” That’s how we arrived at the seven values that we have now and this has been the case for a couple of years now. It’s ever-present in running our business.  

Let’s go to what made you write this latest book. This is not your first book by any means. I’m always interested in the story of origin as a fellow author. I know that coming up with a title can be challenging. There are usually many versions of it before you land on it. Because you’ve written other books, there has to be a creative urge to express something that hasn’t been said before. The subtitle grabs it.

Online Courses: Reading a book about parenting is very different from sitting across from a three-year-old who’s screaming and throwing spaghetti all over the place.

In some ways, I don’t know that a lot of people think that an online course is a roadmap to creating freedom by teaching their gifts. Let’s break down those words, freedom, a gift and an online course. If you put those things together, I don’t know that a lot of people will go, “That’s a book title.” A lot of people will be like, “What does one have to do with the other?” A part of the way that you break through the clutter is giving people and bringing something new to look at going, “What?” 

The title was pretty easy. The substance was hard. I’ve written several books about online courses. At some point, I’m searching for a reference to what’s out there. I noticed there is no book called Online Courses and yet that’s what people are going to be looking for. It was pretty clear that the next book is going to be called Online Courses and teaching your gift and creating freedom. This is what our business is all about. That was obvious so that’s what the subtitle is going to be. In terms of the content and style of the book, this was a different book than other books I’ve written. I’ve written several books about online courses. I wrote Teach and Grow Rich in 2015 and it came out with a second edition in 2017. Leverage Learning in 2018. Teach Your Gift in 2020. Effortless in 2021.  

I’ve written about this a lot and based on the reviews that are out there, people seem to like it. In aggregate, they have close to 1,000 five-star reviews. I found that despite people liking the book, often there was a disconnect between what they’re learning in the book and being able to go and do stuff with it. That disconnect is about the fact that there’s a difference between learning about something and the lived experience of doing it. Hearing someone telling you about their ski journey is different from being at the top of the hill looking down and it’s terrifying. Reading a book about parenting is different from sitting across from a three-year-old who’s screaming and throwing spaghetti all over the place. They’re different experiences.  

I wrote this book as a business parable. It tells the story of this fictional character. She is modeled after the thousands of people that we’ve trained in this process to show what are the steps in the journey of figuring out what you want to do. What are the demons that you have to struggle with? What are the places where people stumble and need to overcome? What are the challenges that get in their way? It’s meant to be an opportunity for getting the information and learn about all the steps. It’s also an opportunity to ride shotgun on that journey and see what it feels like experientially. That’s what I was trying to do with the book. 

I’m going to go out on a limb and predict that it’s going to be as successful as Who Moved My Cheese? back in the day because it’s a parable. Parables are what I’m all about, which is storytelling. When you craft a story that people see themselves in as opposed to listing, “Here are the pain points you might be suffering,” and it goes to, “Here’s a story of Amy.” Suddenly you’re seeing yourself in the book and you’re like, “My name is not Amy but I feel the frustrations that she feels. I went and did something that was a big waste of time as opposed to spending time with my family and feeling guilty for trying to be in two places at once.”  

Suddenly the neck gets wider and wider and it’s not even gender-specific but entrepreneur-specific. That’s where you go, “I know ten people that would love this. What a great gift.” That’s where the magic happens in a story as well. When you tell a great story, people remember it and share it. That’s where your brand ambassadors start happening and that’s what makes you memorable. Instead of creating yet another manual on how to launch and create an online course, which you’re certainly an expert at that. If you have a roadmap, you’ve done it.  

Part of the reason people join your courses, masterminds and hire you for private coaching. I’m glad that you said it was a little bit harder than even the title because anything that breaks through the clutter is a little bit harder. Do we need another manual? Maybe not. You’re not doing that. You’re giving us the experience of living it as opposed to learning about, “Here are the six steps to figure out what your gift is. You might get frustrated,” whatever the journey is. It’s the classic hero’s journey that there are going to be days that you think, “Why did I even try this?” It’s the trough of despair that entrepreneurs go through so often. If you wanted people to think of this book, what would be one of the main things you would hope they would get out of reading it besides realizing that they have a gift that if they figure out how to monetize it, it’ll give them some freedom? 

The number one thing that I’d want people to take away from that, beyond the subject matter and the opportunity of online courses is that if this book does well, it will be because people feel seen when they read it. They’ll be like, “Someone gets it. It’s not just me.” That is something that is so important and necessary for all of us as human beings to not feel isolated and yet it’s such a disconnect for a lot of entrepreneurs.  

The reality is that most of the people in our lives, as supportive as they might want to be, don’t understand. They don’t have any frame of reference for what it is that we’re undertaking for the ambiguity, uncertainty, unpredictability and the amount of our identity that we’ve put into what we’re trying to do for the hopes, dreams, ups and downs and the highs and lows. Everything else will be a byproduct. If this book does well, it’ll be because people feel seen and able to relate when they read. 

What good parents do is make their children feel seen, heard and acknowledged. What a lot of entrepreneurs or people in big companies forget is their employees have the same needs. It doesn’t go away, “Watch me jump in the pool.” Mom or dad doesn’t go away because you get into Corporate America and the recognition program of all of that. For me, I’ve helped companies make their employees feel seen by asking them what their story of origin is. What made you get into healthcare, for example? Whatever it is that people go, “No one’s ever asked me that before.” It bonds people together. 

One of the things that I like about your writing, Danny, is the specificity, how specific you are. For example, there’s one line here, “Amy noticed a milk-colored stain on his left shoulder, the sort that a baby would make spitting up on you.” If you are the person that notices those details and you, as a writer, can get that specific because you probably know that people put their baby on that left shoulder, there are 101 details that go into that then we’re in the story. Part of the secret to becoming a good storyteller and a good writer is the exposition, the who, what, where, when. You have such a gift of pulling us into this parable that we’re no longer feeling we’re learning something but we’re in a story. We would be in a movie theater or Netflix. That taps into a different side of our brain, doesn’t it? 

It does and it’s gratifying to hear you say that. This is my 11th or 12th book. As I sat down to write this, my first thought was, “I have no idea how to do this.” It’s like I’m completely starting from scratch. What I kept in mind a lot because I’ve been listening to a lot of audio content and audiobooks is I thought a lot about what this is going to sound like. We’re getting it produced. That content isn’t ready yet but we’re getting it produced. I’ve got a team of actors. It’s going to be amazing. I say that while knocking on wood. It’s the famous last words, “I hope it will be amazing.”. 

There are people who love this whether it’s a podcast or an audiobook especially if it’s a story and you hear the sound effects like the ​​knocking at the door and you start imagining it coming to life. The other thing that you did that is going to make that Audible so successful and I always teach people that when you tell a story, tell it as if it’s in the present tense that the dialogue is happening now. For example, when I give a keynote talk to sales teams, I talk about the time I got to meet Michael Phelps. I went up to him and I said, “You’re so successful because your physique is crazy, fins and lung capacity. I’m guessing there’s something else.” He said, “Yes, John. When I was young, my coach said to me, ‘Michael, are you willing to work out on Sundays?’ ‘Yes, coach.’ ‘Great. We got 52 more workouts than the competitors.’” I then say to the audience, “What can you do? What are you willing to do?”  

That story is connected to an outcome that people can see themselves in but I tell the audience, “If I told you that story in the past tense, I met Michael Phelps. I asked him what his secret is. He told me he worked out on Sundays.” It’s not nearly as interesting. You don’t feel like you’re in the story. You probably wouldn’t remember it as much. I act out with the coach’s voice, what his young voice is. You feel like you’re eavesdropping in on the coach and Michael having a conversation, which is eavesdropping in on the conversation that I had with Michael.  

That’s the sophisticated level of storytelling. I’m telling you a story about somebody who then told me a story. The way to keep that all relevant that you do so well in this book is I feel like I’m in the story and listening to the dialogue. That is not something that a lot of authors or storytellers know how to do. We always need some details of interstates left. It’s half an hour later now. We need to know where we are. You also do a great job of expressing internal thoughts and feelings that then get expressed into dialogue. That’s the other thing I wanted to ask you about. When you work with people on helping them create a course, how important is it that they’re identifying the challenges, the pain points that they’re solving in the course by having some specific empathy and ability to describe it? 

It’s critical. Here’s the thing, a quality course is like a piece of art. It’s only good in the eye of the beholder. There’s no such thing as an objectively good course or an objectively beautiful piece of art. There is an art that is liked by people. There are courses that are valuable to people. Creating any good course starts with, “Who is this for?” A technique borrowed from the world of instructional design is called Backward Integrated Design. You ask yourself at the end of the day when they’re through with the course, “What do I want them to be able to do?”  

You go a level or two deeper. You say, “Not what do I want them to be able to.” You want to ask yourself, “How well do I want them to be able to do it and under what circumstances?” It’s like an active listening course. I’m teaching active listening. It’s like, “Do I want them to be able to go through the motions with their partner in this little exercise? Do I want them to be able to do it in the heat of the moment during an argument with their spouse?” That’s a different level of skill in adopting the techniques. Do you start with who is this for? What will they value? What is the end goal? You work backward in terms of what you’re looking to build. Otherwise, it’s all pointless.  

It’s reverse engineering in a clever way. Who do I want this to be for? What do I want them to be able to do after they take the course? What do I want them to be doing in specific circumstances? Was there something else? Was that the gist of it? 

What do I want them to be able to do, how well and under what circumstances? 

The how well is fascinating because my online course, The Sale is in the Tale, is all about teaching people how to become better storytellers as a sales tool. I will say sometimes that even if you think you’re a good storyteller, this is going to get you to the black belt level. People go, “Oh.” I’ll have students who go, “I always thought I was a pretty good storyteller but now I realized that there is a lot more I can learn to become a great one. Asking these kinds of questions is valuable.” I’m glad you shared it.  

When I hired a coach who was a specialist in helping people give a TEDx Talk, we did a similar series of questions where he said, “Let’s pretend it’s at the end of your talk. What do you want the audience to feel, think and do?” That will determine the end of your talk. We’re starting to work on what’s your ending going to be with those three outcomes. That process whether you’re creating a piece of art that’s known as an online course or a piece of art that hopefully is your talk or whatever story you’re telling and whatever format, Audible in your case, we’re coming up next. It’s all about having an emotional impact. 

Emotional and tangible. Whatever we do is meant to accomplish an objective so let’s not leave it to happenstance. Let’s not do this and hope it leads to that outcome. Let’s be strategic about making sure that’s where it goes. 

You offer such a wide range of ways to interact with you. You’re also a speaker and you get called in major places. Are companies like Google interested in learning how to create an online course for their employees? This is one of my favorite topics that you’re talking about, not just how to get to be the best but how to stay the best. If you look at certain actors, they stay at the top of their game. The other ones, you’ll never hear of again or like a Blockbuster or Kodak. This ability to get to the top and stay at the top, my first question around that is what’s harder, staying at the top or getting to the top? 

Staying at the top. I don’t know if you remember the movie Dangerous Minds in the ‘90s with Michelle Pfeiffer. She does this exercise with the kids. She says, “Everyone has an A as of now. You just have to work to keep it.” In the end, she’s got all these kids with A’s and they’re like, “It doesn’t count because you gave us the A to start.” She’s like, “Anyone can earn an A once. You kept the A for the whole year.” That’s the hard part. 

The other part of what you do is very niched, which is the unspoken problem that a lot of companies don’t like to talk about, the cost of turnover. You’ve got to spend time interviewing, training, onboarding. Are they going to fit and become family? Meanwhile, there’s this gap of talent and productivity that’s not happening because you’ve got a gap that somebody left. The joke is nobody leaves a job, they leave a bad boss. You’ve been able to figure out how to take your skills and training. Is it because part of the problem is people aren’t onboarding properly and that’s why people aren’t able to attract and keep the best talent? 

There’s a flywheel that goes in either direction. It can be a vicious spiral of not onboarding people well and you don’t have good support or infrastructure. You don’t have a good culture. You don’t have good values as an organization. It’s not a good place to work so you don’t attract customers. You don’t make much money so you can’t support people well. It’s a downward spiral. They can also go the other way. You invest all of your relationships. You invest in relationships with your customers and the people that you work with. You constantly look to get a little bit better. You have values that both attract and repel. Clear and articulated values should attract the right people and repel the wrong people. Does that mean you never make a bad hire? No, but the frequency goes down. You catch it sooner and you keep getting better. That’s what it is. 

It’s almost testing ads online. You get to test. You iterate and let’s change that headline or image so now it gets better. Is it always giving us the best potential buyers? No, but the leads and the frequency get better. It’s the same thing with the hiring process using your structure and your insights on how to attract the best and repel. That’s the old concept that a lot of people have forgotten. If you try to be everything to everybody, you’re nothing. A big mistake I see a lot of entrepreneurs are making and I would love your insight on this because it keeps coming up, “What I do is complicated. I do ten things.” Even Amazon sold books first and got proof of concept. Trying to do more than one thing before you get some traction is a mistake that I see a lot. Do you see that? If you do, what advice do you have for people that make that mistake? 

I do see that a lot and I made that mistake earlier. What I’ve come to understand is there is a difference between all the things you could do, all the things you should do but even beyond that, what you are known for. I am the online courses guy. That is what I do. I teach people how to take their expertise and turn it into online courses. Do I know other things? Can I do other things? Do I even help my students with some other things? Yes but that’s not ever what I lead with. I teach people how to build and sell online courses. Once they know, like and trust me and they’re in my world, we can talk about other things if appropriate. To the world, to the people who are not yet my customers, I teach people how to build and sell online courses. 

It’s hard to top that. That’s brilliant. “Be known for one thing,” that’s going to be a tweet for sure. Amazon was known for selling online books for a long time. Imagine if they tried to launch selling everything they sell now and have TV shows. People are like, “What?” That ability to enter your world is my favorite description of that. What else have you got and what else can you help me with becomes a natural journey that you take us all on. Any last thoughts or quotes you want to leave us with? 

In the spirit of the story, something that I tell my students often is the journey of online courses, the journey of business will involve ups and downs and setbacks and challenges along the way. What I often tell my students is that failure is only failure if it happens in the last chapter. Otherwise, it’s a plot twist and the spirit of the story.  

That’s a great description. That’s a plot twist. The story’s not over yet. I love it. Thanks, Danny. 

Thank you so much.

Important Links

• Mirasee
• Online Courses: How to Create Freedom by Teaching Your Gift
• Teach and Grow Rich
  
• Leverage Learning
  
• Teach Your Gift
  
• Effortless
  
• Who Moved My Cheese?
  
• The Sale is in the Tale

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