Turning Browsers Into Buyers With Billy Bross

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TSP Bross | Turning Browsers Into Buyers


Episode Summary:

Have you ever wondered how to turn a browser into a buyer on your website or your ad? Marketing consultant Billy Bross is here to tell you how to do it. Billy specializes in helping experts scale their online education businesses. In this episode, he joins host John Livesay tackle salesmanship, online marketing, and copywriting, and how copywriting made all the difference in Billy’s business. Whether you’re a solopreneur or an online entrepreneur, you don’t want to miss this episode.

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Turning Browsers Into Buyers With Billy Bross

Our guest is Billy Bross. He’s an MBA turned independent marketing consultant. He specializes in helping experts scale their online education businesses. So far, Billy has helped experts in more than 30 different niches ranging everything from 3D printing to German language learning. He has such a great personality. We’ve become friends over the years. He’s mentioned in my book Better Selling Through Storytelling because he has the ability to analyze something and decide if something’s a smart business move. His laser focus is one of the many things that I’ve learned from being friends with Billy. Without any further intro, Billy, welcome to the show.

John, thank you so much. It’s great to be here.

I always want to ask my guests to take us back to their story of origin. I know some of yours. I’m completely fascinated that your dad was a dentist, you have a lot of brothers and everyone in your family has perfect teeth. That’s only me. I want to hear your own journey of what lessons did you learn? Many medical professionals, dentists included, are entrepreneurs in a way but you went a different way and decided to get your MBA. Tell us your own little story of origin. You can go back as far as you want.

It’s cool that you brought up my dad. You’re right about the teeth. It’s funny, in his office, he has a picture of the four kids. We’re all tan because it was the summertime and we’re smiling and we all have good teeth because my dad got us free braces. Everyone always comments on the photo. It’s hilarious. I’m definitely a hybrid of my dad and my grandfather. I’m actually the third. My dad is junior and my grandfather is Billy senior and I’m the third. My dad is more of a craftsman, whereas my grandfather is more of an entrepreneur. He started his own company. I am split down the middle and I’m not the typical entrepreneur. I always say I’m more entrepreneurial than I am a pureblood entrepreneur if you want to call it that.

I’m like Gary Vaynerchuk. He is a pureblood entrepreneur. He always tells a story about when he was ten years old and he was selling baseball cards on the weekend. He was hustling and making money. That wasn’t me at all. I was playing baseball on the weekends when I was ten years old with my buddies and goofing off. I didn’t follow that typical path of the entrepreneur where they usually drop out of high school or don’t go to college and start something right away. I took the traditional path. I love school and learning. That’s why I love working with online courses. Even when I got my MBA, I had no intention of using it the way people usually use MBAs, which is to go to a top school, go to some big management consulting firm and rise up the corporate ranks. I got it more so because, one, I wanted to stay in college and I was able to do that and get my MBA in my fifth year. I wasn’t quite ready to leave yet. It’s also for the learning, the education and my company paid for it too, which helps. That wasn’t bad.

I did that and I had a great and interesting career working in renewable energy. I was working on these big projects. If you think of those big solar installations out in the desert near Las Vegas or the big wind farms in Kansas, it’s that kind of a thing. I was doing finance and financial modeling for those projects. I like it and I loved the people who I worked with. It was interesting work. I’m entrepreneurial and the first day that I sat down at my desk for that job, I knew that I wasn’t going to be there forever. I said, “This is cool for a while but I’ve got to start a side hustle. I’ve got to get something going here. What can I do? I’ve got to have a project.”

I thought about what I could do and I was thinking, “What am I into? If I leave this, I want to make sure it’s something that I’m passionate about.” What came to mind was brewing beer, of all things. Back in college, my buddy and I got into brewing beer because we were drinking a whole lot of beer. We thought, “Maybe there’s a cheaper way to do this.” Which by the way, it turns out, it doesn’t save you a whole lot of money to brew your own beer when you factor in all the gear you’ve got to buy. As I tend to do it, I geeked out on it and went deep into it. I started learning the science behind it, entering competitions, creating my own recipes and winning awards for those. I studied for a year to become a beer judge, which most people don’t believe is actually a thing, but it is.

80% of copywriting is research. Click To Tweet

That was the obvious choice for me. After that corporate job, I would go home, fire up the beer website, start writing reviews about what I was drinking and posting tutorials. The next thing I know, fast forward a few years and I’m doing as well financially from that website as I was from my MBA job. It got to the point where I was ready to jump ship. I was ready to leave and strike out on my own. That’s when I put in my two weeks, said goodbye to everyone and became self-employed. I haven’t looked back since.

Was that a transition, because it seems like that’s a logical thought out and a non-risky way to do it. It’s like, “I’ve made as much money in my side hustle as I did. I’m not going to suddenly not have a lot of money. In fact, I’ve been able to save since I’ve got two sources of income.” You’ve told me in the past that there was a little bit of sticker shock trough of despair that we talk about sometimes on this show. It’s something that entrepreneurs go through where the newness is exciting, fun and you’ve got proof of concept. Was there something that was unexpectedly difficult when you made that decision to go full-time that you learned?

Absolutely. It was not all smooth sailing. There were a lot of failures along the way. I’m still failing all the time but I try to fail forward. The toughest thing for me was, I had this great business background, but the thing that they don’t teach you when you get your MBA is how to sell that you know you are a master at. I was not. What they teach you is how to manage the money once it already comes in but they don’t tell you how to make the money come in. I’m running my beer brewing course and selling these courses over my website. I had to figure this part out.

I had to figure out how to sell the courses. When you’re selling things online, I wasn’t selling things in person. I wasn’t doing face to face. I wasn’t doing things over the phone. It was, “Go to my website. Go to the sales page. Click buy now and check out.” Through reading about online marketing, I discovered direct response marketing and specifically copywriting. Copywriting has been the most valuable tool that I’ve learned in my whole life, to be honest with you. It teaches you how to communicate, how to sell things, and it teaches you a whole lot about psychology, which is something I’ve always been interested in.

Copywriting is essentially salesmanship in print. If you want to sell someone through the written word, copywriting is what you want to study. I got some advice a long time ago that if you want to learn something, go hire the best person because amateurs are expensive. I went out and I found the best copywriting coach in the world. This guy named David Garfinkel, who’s a legend. I paid him a whole lot of money to mentor underneath him for a year. He’s the one that taught me copywriting. It was the best investment I ever made and made all the difference in my business.

Let’s look at that. The willingness to invest in learning from someone is crucial. I had to do that launching my podcast, finding someone to edit it and promote it for me so I didn’t have to try to spend time doing something that’s not in my expertise. You can either hire someone to train you or you can hire someone to do it for you. You made the decision of, “I’m going to invest in myself to learn how to be a better copywriter because I’m going to need that skill for my own course.” Ultimately deciding that your real niche is to help others. What gives you such credibility and expertise is you have been in the shoes of the people who hire you.

I see this time and again from people I interview. Whether it’s an entrepreneur pitching an investor to fund them, when I’ve worked with clients, when I give keynote talks to big organizations, whether they’re an architecture firm or an executive search firm. When they go in and they have some time to pitch on why they should be hired, when they can tell a story where someone says, “You’ve been in my shoes,” or “You’ve helped someone who’s been in my shoes.” It transforms the concept of selling into, “Thank God you’re here.” My question to you is, did you know when you were going through this beer brewing business and developing an online course that your ultimate end game was going to teach other people how to sell their courses? Was that a nice a-ha moment after you decided you weren’t going to keep doing your own course?

TSP Bross | Turning Browsers Into Buyers

Turning Browsers Into Buyers: Copywriting is essentially salesmanship in print.


I didn’t have any intention of doing that. I didn’t know when my next move was going to be. I knew that I wouldn’t be running the beer websites my entire life. I’ll put it that way. I knew that it was the best next step for me but knowing myself, I knew that I would eventually move on to other things. I love learning new things. I’m ambitious and I need new things to keep my interest. What happened was, as I tend to do, I geeked out on online marketing and copywriting and went deep into that. I love being around people, especially people in a similar field with a similar mindset like yourself, John. That’s why I like hanging out with you.

I started going to these marketing conferences and other people and other online course creators started to take notice of what I was doing. They reached out to me and said, “Billy, I noticed that your marketing is good. You have these great emails, great ads and you’re doing well with your site. Would you mind helping me out?” I said, “This has been cool. You have a cool site and niche.” To be honest, what I was doing got a little bit lonely. I liked what I was doing but I didn’t have anyone to talk to. I went from being in this career and a company that I like and being surrounded by smart people to sitting in my spare bedroom, which became my home office and it was lonely. That’s something that a lot of people don’t talk about when they talk about being a solopreneur and an online entrepreneur.

It’s important for us to talk about that. That is an unexpected emotion that comes up. In fact, there is a great quote, “The loneliest job in the world is being a solo entrepreneur.” Especially if you come from a place of being surrounded by a lot of other people who are creative, stimulating, sharing ideas and collaborating. How did you figure out a way to come back from that? Do you schedule lunches three times a week to make sure you get out and see people? What is your solution to that?

That’s certainly part of it. I would say it’s a multipronged solution with the in-person meetups. I still work from home and it’s still only me. What I discovered was, we have this amazing technology where we can do video chats and hop on the phone with someone from across the world. I didn’t think about that ahead of time. I realized that when I started consulting with these other businesses and I said, “I like this. This is fun. I want more of this.” That became my new passion. Eventually, it got to the point where I was more passionate about that and I saw how many more people I was impacting working with multiple businesses than only my own. I saw that as the next step. After running the beer site for about seven years, I got that feeling. The same feeling that I got when I was in my 9:00 to 5:00 job. It was saying, “It’s time to move on and take things to the next level.” Fortunately, I was able to sell the website and that went pretty cleanly. I was able to move on and now I love what I’m doing working with these people who are in the same position that I was in. They are experts at what they do. They’re top of their field. They have this amazing content that the world needs and they need help getting it out there to the people who need it.

Let’s describe your ideal avatar because it will be a great case study for everyone reading the transcript to figure out how important is it? In your introduction, I said you have such a wide range of people who are selling all kinds of things. It’s not like you only help people who sell 3D printing courses or learning a new language or something. There has to be some consistent problem that they’re having that they need you to solve. Within that problem that you’re solving for them, it’s important to identify where they are in their own journey. In other words, is it only an idea and they come to you? Do they already have a course and it’s making a certain amount of revenue and now you come in and get it to scale? Having that understanding of your ideal avatar and the criteria of what that is with you, telling your story of that will help everybody reading as they determine their own ideal avatars.

It’s people who have existing businesses and they want to scale. That’s where my skillset lies. I’m good at pouring fuel on the fire and this is why I have such respect for entrepreneurs. It’s such a tough thing to validate your product. It’s also the most important thing to create something that people want to buy. If you do that, the rest is easy. I’m not so much the launch your online course guy but if you have something that’s working and there is market demand, I love that. Usually, the people that I work with, they’re almost a little bit surprised by their success. It was like me with mine. I was like, “People are actually buying this?” There was a demand for it. That’s the thing, you can’t manufacture demand. It’s either there or it’s not.

I want to stop and let that sink in for people, “It’s either there or it’s not.” Let’s talk about product-market fit and how important it is. One investor said to me, “If you’re selling dog food, I want to see the dogs eating the food.” That’s my favorite way to describe what that is without being all MBA and for everybody to instantly get what that is. Someone has to figure out, “I have an idea for a course. What problem is it solving? Would people pay for it? What are they doing without this course? Is there proof that taking the course solves the problem or have they wasted money on something that didn’t work?” All of those things and objections that people have going on in their heads. What I see your expertise with your copywriting skills is, first of all, it’s clean and crisp. It’s not these long paragraphs but the question I have is, how important is it to get inside the head of the person reading the ad to see if they want to buy that course that makes them feel, “You got me. Therefore, this course would probably get me?”

Let your customers write your copy. Click To Tweet

It’s absolutely everything. The big secret that I learned from paying that copywriting coach all that money was, 80% of copywriting is research. I learned that the best copywriters spend, if you’re looking at a log of their time, you would see that they have 80% of their time on research but research is boring. Some people hear that and they’re like, “No, I don’t want to do research. I want to sell.” Fortunately for me, I like that. I’m curious about topics and I’m even more curious about people. I love the research and I tend to love these things that other people hate, research and getting on the phone with customers. That’s one of my favorite things to do. That was my hack when I was running my beer website.

There’s another marketer I respect a lot who said, “One phone call is worth 200 survey responses.” It’s true because you can dig. Someone can get a response and you can say, “Why is that? Why did you make that decision? Why is that important to you?” That is the trick, if you want to call it that, to copywriting, which is let your customers write your copy. They’ll tell you. They’ll spill the beans and they’ll ask you. I literally take a transcript of those calls. I highlight the important phrases and they become subject lines, Facebook ad copy or headlines on the sales pages. It writes itself that is everything.

Let’s give a couple of examples for people. Conceptually, they get it. For example, when I was being interviewed to give a keynote talk to a food company up in Seattle, the CEO said, “I want to hire a speaker who will teach my salespeople to be more persuasive.” I got it. What do they need to persuade people to do? It was A, B and C. I can customize my talk to that. I created a tab on my website under speaking, that’s a persuasion tab. I know that’s what people search for. If you search persuasion keynote speaker, there’s content that I created, a video on that one specific topic for one minute was created.

It’s all because I knew if there was one customer and I could get 100 of those people and that’s a problem I know how to solve through storytelling and makes people persuasive. That’s what he was searching for. That’s the problem he wanted to be solved and that’s how the metrics were. Your keynote will be successful if my people are more confident in being persuasive. I’m sure you have an example of an online course that you’ve done some research and found out from their existing customers why something is important to them. Tell us what that was and how you turn that into a subject line in an email or an ad.

Let me give an example from a beer brewing site. This was one of the courses that I created, one of quite a few. It was going to be a course on recipe creation. That was a skill of mine, how to come up with your own recipes. Let’s say I wasn’t a copywriter and I would’ve hired a copywriter but more a low-level one who doesn’t do the research. A lot of copywriters actually don’t know that and they go right to writing the copy. They probably would have written a headline that was something like, “How to create a recipe that tastes amazing,” or “How to create a recipe that is delicious,” with all these adjectives, “It’s so good. Everyone loves it.” To be honest, if I hadn’t done the customer research myself, that’s a headline that I would have written. I knew that I had to trust the process even though I wasn’t a marketer and I was a homebrewer. I’m like, “You’re too close to it though. You need to talk to people.” I did about a dozen or so customer interviews and what I discovered was that they didn’t so much want to create a recipe because they want something that tastes good. They wanted to create a recipe that they could call their own.

It’s almost like bragging rights.

What a homebrewer hates is when they have a friend over and they’re sharing a beer with a friend. They go to their kegerator, take their beer glass, pour the beer and hand it to their friend. The friend drinks the beer and says, “That is amazing. Where did you get the recipe?” What a homebrewer hates in that scenario is to go, “I got it from this guy Billy online.” What they love is when that person says, “This is amazing. Where did you get the recipe?” The homebrewer goes, “I created it on my own.” That’s what they love.

TSP Bross | Turning Browsers Into Buyers

Turning Browsers Into Buyers: It’s the most important thing to create something that people want to buy. If you do that, the rest is easy.


It’s the pride, bragging rights and status. Also, everyone has different tastes. I’ve created a lot of beers that are actually good but their esoteric styles are weird and not everyone’s going to like them. It’s not all about that. It is about the pride and the craftsmanship that goes into it. This is a good tip for the readers. The way you know that you’re done doing customer interviews is when you start hearing the same thing and the same phrase over and over. That’s when you know that you’ve got something there. The phrase that I kept hearing over and over again was, “I want something I can call my own.” Guess what the name of the course became? It’s called Call it Your Own.

I love that because you’re tapping into the subconscious need. If you could say to somebody, “Would you ever buy a course on making your own beer?” They go, “Maybe.” You said to them, “Would you buy it because it tastes good?” They go, “Yeah, probably.” They wouldn’t even be able to verbally say they want to make it their own without you asking a series of questions to dig in a little bit. It’s important to not only stop at one question and go, “Done,” or do the bias confirmation, “Would you buy this or that?” Leave it. Let them tell you what they want to buy as opposed to giving them pick A or B.

Don’t say the word “would.” That’s a no-no on customer interviews. I’m glad you brought that up because they’ll tell you what you want to hear.

That’s why voting predictions aren’t necessarily accurate. All kind of things works the same research that goes into that. Is it easy for you to learn all kinds of different topics that people are selling on online courses? Is that part of your own curiosity and you love that?

I’m blessed with that natural skillset to learn and pick up on things. That’s also my background too. I took this unique major in college. My college, James Madison University in Virginia, go Dukes, is the only college in the country that offers it. It’s called Integrated Science and Technology. It’s a blend of a bunch of different scientific fields from energy, power production, biotechnology, manufacturing and computer science. I’ve been trained on how to learn things from different fields and pick up on them quickly and I’m naturally curious. That’s why I’m a good fit for what I do. I found my happy place.

When do you decide this business is best for Facebook ads versus LinkedIn or some other social media platform?

The way that I look at online courses and the goal is to get people onto your email list. When I go behind the scenes of these successful companies and a lot of people are surprised. There are riches in niches, as they say. A lot of them are doing 6 or 7 figures a year. When you look at the stats, most of those sales are still coming from good old email, believe it or not. You mentioned a couple of social media platforms, a big mistake people make is they try to sell on those social media platforms.

One phone call is worth more than 200 surveys. Click To Tweet

As opposed to that platform of the funnel where you opt-in and give them something free to get the email and continue the relationship. Is that what you’re going for?

Exactly. You have to use the right tool for the job. Going on Facebook with an ad and putting that in front of someone who’s never heard of you before and saying, “Buy now.” It’s like a party and walking up to someone and saying, “Want to buy my stuff? I’ve got some watches in my coat,” versus asking them some questions and delivering some value, maybe pointing them towards a resource. It’s important to lead with value and save the pitch for later.

Billy, I had this exact experience that happened to me and I want to share it with everyone reading and have you give an example, either from your beer business or one of your other clients. When I was a guest on a podcast about selling and talking about my book, in the end, he said, “How can people buy your book?” I said, “Before they buy the book, if they want to get a free sneak peek of it, they can text the word, PITCH to 66866 and I’ll send it to them on their phone. In order to get the free sneak peek, they have to opt-in.” The ability to do that with a text on your phone, for some reason, people find that less of a friction point than going to the website and entering their email for the free PDF.

Someone did that, liked what they saw, bought the book, reached out to me and put me in touch with someone who might want to hire me as a speaker. He literally told me, “Had you not offered that free PDF via text, as much as I like all the content on the podcast, I would not have jumped to buying the book on Amazon or going to your site to get the free PDF. It was the fact that it was texting and the PDF was well done. It had great graphics, good content and it made me hungry enough to want to know more and get the whole book.”

It was validating to hear that because you think, “I hope this works,” but to literally hear it from someone who became a fan. I talk about going from invisible to irresistible. He’s telling people to buy this book. When you get those brand ambassadors for an online course, I’m assuming as well, it’s all because you’ve nurtured that relationship and made it easy. My question to you is, do you have a story of someone you’ve helped create an easy next step versus buying the course?

Absolutely. It was my first consulting client when I was running my beer website. He’s still a friend to this day. He runs an excellent website called No Meat Athlete. It’s a website for people who are plant-based, vegans and vegetarians who are also into fitness. A big question that people in his market have is, “Where do I get my protein from?” That’s a big objection. They’re not eating meat anymore, which is cool, but the meat did provide a big source of protein. Where do I get it from? He had these blog posts that has a bunch of information on different foods and protein content. It was good.

I said, “We’re getting tons of traffic to this blog post. It’s one of the top-ranking posts on Google. Why don’t we offer something? Why don’t we put a free PDF on that page that they have to opt-in for?” What we did was we created a grocery list. We said, “We’ve got this long blog post and there’s a lot of background info, science, contexts and all this. Let’s give them something valuable.” That’s the key, John. It’s like how your PDF is valuable. You want to make sure that this thing is tangibly valuable to them. I said, “How are they using this?”

TSP Bross | Turning Browsers Into Buyers

Turning Browsers Into Buyers: The goal of online courses is to get people onto your email list.


This is going to come into play when they’re shopping for groceries. Let’s create a grocery list. Let’s make it a one-page PDF. They can opt-in and take this thing to the grocery store with them. When they’re browsing the aisles, they have this easy reference. That thing generated about 800 new opt-ins in the first week. It crushed it from then on out. What we did was, we followed up. That’s where a lot of people make a mistake is that they dropped the ball on the follow-up. That was a great lead into the course, which was a meal planning course. There’s a key lesson there too. You want to make sure that the thing you give away is aligned with your main product.

It’s not jolting and going, “I thought I was heading this way and now you’re turning a sharp right.” It should be one straight long line that’s an expansion of what you’ve already done. I’ve learned that from what the headline in the ad is to the landing page, if that’s a disconnect, then you won’t get results as well.

We call that the ad scent. It’s like a beagle who picks up the scent on the trail. I’m making sure that the beagle doesn’t lose the scent. If they do, they get frustrated. You want to make sure that your reader doesn’t lose the scent. If you change colors and headlines and the promise changes, if you’re running an ad for a stereo and they land on the landing page and it’s for a TV, then it’s going to be jilted. They’re going to lose the scent.

Especially when you’re talking about the food guy, I love the scent. We’re keeping the metaphor going. How important is the pricing? Is that also part of the testing and if so, how?

Pricing is an interesting one. That’s one of the biggest levers that you can pull in your business and it doesn’t get enough attention. A couple of things with pricing is, one, you want to test it. Why I love testing pricing is because it doesn’t take a whole lot of work. You change the price. You don’t have to launch and create anything new. What you’ll find is that oftentimes raising your price increases conversions.

That’s counterintuitive. Explain that please.

Let’s imagine I go into a wine store. Let’s say I’ve got a hot date and I want to impress her. I want to get a great bottle of wine. Am I going to buy the $5 bottle of wine? Probably not. I’m not going with the Two-Buck Chuck. That’s only one I’m hanging out at the beach or something. I’m going to go with a higher-priced bottle of wine because we look for shortcuts. We’re distracted. We have all this sensory input coming at us and we need mental shortcuts. For the most part, a higher price is an indicator of quality. That’s what we use.

Instead of lowering the price, increase the value. A higher price is an indicator of quality. Click To Tweet

We see the $50 bottle of wine next to the $5 bottle of wine and we say, “That must be better. I’m in a rush. I’m going to grab that one. That’s going to get the job done.” What you’ll find is a lot of people are looking for that higher-priced option. I’ve had people and clients come to me and say, “I went with you because you’re more expensive than the next guy. We’re a legit company. We’re looking to do big things here. We don’t want Walmart. We want whoever the high-end retailer is.” I’m sure you’ve experienced the same thing.

Yes. If you’re calling on Fortune 500 companies to come to speak, they want to feel they’re getting value. They don’t want someone who hasn’t done it before or isn’t comfortable with being in front of a big ballroom full of people. They want to feel like they’re in the hands of someone that they can trust. If you’re going in to buy a Lamborghini, your expectations of who’s going to help you are different than going to buy a Kia.

The key thing is you’ve got to deliver the goods.

From the packaging to everything.

Otherwise, you might get by for a while but words are going to get around especially with what we do, which is based on our personalities and personal brand. If you don’t deliver and don’t get results, you’re going to be sabotaging yourself. Don’t get caught up in the race to the bottom. It’s lonely at the top. There are people who want the high-priced option.

Do you work with your clients on saying, “You’re selling an online course on selling. Let’s look at the top five other courses that are out there. Let’s see what they’re offering for the price point, see what the value is and see what your point of difference is?” Is that part of your research?

Yes, that’s a big part of it. It’s the competitor research. The second part at which I didn’t get to was you want to test your pricing. Instead of lowering your price, increase the value. Ask yourself, “How can I charge this much? What is the additional value that I can add?” You might be tempted to add more stuff. We tend to think that the more stuff in a box, the more bonuses and whatever. What I’ve found is that’s often the opposite. If someone can get the same results by taking a six-module course versus a twelve-module course, they’re going to do it. They want the results. If you can also save them time, that’s a huge score. That’s one thing that allows you to raise your prices.

TSP Bross | Turning Browsers Into Buyers

Turning Browsers Into Buyers: Pricing is one of the biggest levers that you can pull in your business, but it doesn’t get enough attention.


Saving someone’s time on an online course creates value because if I only have to watch seven video modules versus twenty to learn how to be a better storyteller, then I’m in.

One of my favorite stories is Winston Churchill wrote a letter to a friend and said, “Sorry, I would’ve written a shorter letter, but I didn’t have enough time.”

I get it. That’s a great line because like a good pitch, it has to be clear, concise and compelling and that’s what makes you such a good copywriter. If you haven’t experienced Billy’s work, there are so many ways to do it. Your personality is coming through as well as great tips on Instagram @BillyBross. I want to encourage everyone to check out your company’s website, which is Linchpin.media. Is there any last thing you want to leave us with, Billy? A tip or an idea on how to best work with you, anything at all?

If you’re interested in working with me, I’m always interested in helping out experts who have a great course and need more people to hear about it. Also, if you’re on Facebook and I understand if you’re not but if you are on there, we have a free Facebook group called The 20-Minute Email Challenge. Check that out. There’s a lot of great marketing strategy, copywriting and email marketing tips in there.

Thanks for sharing your expertise. Your wisdom on 80% of copywriting is research, I loved that and how to do it. I can’t wait to see how you continue to scale your expertise and what you’re going to be doing helping all these other people. It’s the ripple effect. If you help someone who’s selling an online course and that person scales that business and they wouldn’t have done it without you, it must feel good. I hope it does because I can see it from the outside looking in at you. I hope you can go outside the fishbowl and see your impact because it’s huge.

I appreciate that, John. It is all about the impact on me. Thank you for having me on and thank you for being such a great friend and mentor. I value our relationship.

So, do I.

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John Livesay, The Pitch Whisperer


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