Toxic Workplace with Mitch Kusy
Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments
Episode Summary
Welcome to The Successful Pitch. Today’s guest is Mitch Kusy, who’s the author of the Toxic Workplace. He said, “Toxic people only thrive in a toxic system.” He has a great way of identifying who’s toxic. He said they tend to be people who kiss up or kick down and that there’s three different ways of being a toxic person without even knowing it.
One is you humiliate or shame somebody. The other is you sabotage them through passive – aggressive behavior. The third way is you just are a mean person, who doesn’t seem to care. It’s all about, is your intent to prove the person right or is it your intent to get that person to improve? It’s really a fascinating look at how important it is as a startup to make sure you don’t have a toxic person in your workplace because it spreads, also that you don’t take on an investor who is toxic.
Listen To The Episode Here
Toxic Workplace with Mitch Kusy
Hello and welcome to The Successful Pitch. Today’s guest is Dr. Mitch Kusy, who is the co-author of a book called Toxic Workplace. I am very excited to have him share his expertise because he’s had over 25 years’ experience in organization development. He’s a 2005 Fulbright scholar in International Organization Development and a registered Organization Development Consultant, a full professor in a PhD program at Antioch. A distinguish visiting professor down in New Zealand. He consults literally around the world. Mitch, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much, John. It’s really a pleasure to be here.
I’m thrilled to have you. One of the key things that investors look for when they’re deciding which startup they’re going to fund is, who’s on the team? How well does the team get along? Does the team handle stress well? Who better than you, to talk about the dangers and ways to avoid creating a toxic workplace. That’s why I’m so excited to have you here. Before we get into all your years of experience, can you tell me how you got to be an expert in organization development?
Like many people in their career, in a circuitous route, I was a psychotherapist for about eight or nine years doing individual, family and group therapy. As I was doing that, I started discovering I actually liked much more helping organizations and teams figure out problems. Helping them resolve those issues. I started applying the strategies that I’ve learned in individual and group therapy to organizations. Then, went back to graduate school and got a few more degrees and here I am.
I love it. That really gives you the expertise, doesn’t it? Because, sure the dynamics are just bigger in companies, but especially small startups. It’s almost like a small family dynamic, where somebody’s got the favorite and somebody always has a hot button that gets pushed, I’m imagining.
A toxic person is anyone who demonstrates counter-productive work behavior that influences the organization.
You’re absolutely right, John. Interestingly, it is no different from a small organization to a large organization. In the research study that Dr. Elizabeth Holloway, my co-research and co-author, we found with over 400 participants in our study that 94% of people said they work with a toxic individual.
We defined a toxic person as anyone who demonstrates counter-productive work behavior that influences the individual, the team or the organization. Bottom line here, three categories. People who shame people. The second is people who sabotage the team. Third is passive hostility. Any one, two, or three of those will classify you as a toxic person.
Let’s take a deep dive into that. With the shame, that’s the same, as you mentioned in the book as humiliating someone, correct?
Yes. Actually, interesting about that, what we’ve discovered is that shaming or humiliation could be one-on-one. Only one person experiences it with no one witnessing it, to teams or the entire organization. It doesn’t matter really what the context is, one-on-one or team shaming, is shaming is humiliation.
Interesting. A lot of people say, “I don’t mind if you say something to me or have negative feedback, but don’t do it in front of other people.” What I hear you saying is you still have to be really careful even if it isn’t in front of their peers, to not humiliate somebody. Just say, “Look this was a mistake and it can’t happen again without humiliating them.” Is that accurate?
That’s absolutely true. What’s interesting is, shaming is not negative feedback. We all need at times negative constructive feedback. But what I say to people when I’m coaching them is, “What’s the intent of your feedback? Is the intent to help them improve or is the intent to prove you are right? If you are proving you are right. There’s a high probability you are engaging in shaming behavior.”
[Tweet “Is your intent to prove you’re right or is your intent to prove that you want this person to improve?”]
That’s fantastic. We’re going to tweet that out, “Is your intent to prove you’re right or is your intent to prove that you want this person to improve?” For example, I could see somebody totally losing it on a small thing. A big no-no, obviously, is when you have a pitch deck that has a typo in it. I’m imagining a scenario where somebody gets up in front of an investor, pitches and the investor says, “Hey, you have a good idea, but we’re really sticklers for details. If you can’t get your pitch deck accurate, we’re not going to fund you.” That founder is humiliated by the investor. Then, they take it out on the person who created the deck, even though they were supposed to proof it themselves.
Interesting about that scenario. If I were an investor and an individual made a mistake like that and that person said, “I take total responsibility for that.” In our book, we talked about The Four Step Apology. Framing your mistake in the past, “Yes, I made that mistake.” Two, how it impacted the other individual, saying, “You might have less trust in me as your consultant in this situation.” Third, to apologize. “I apologize.” Fourth, “In the future I’m going to do a better job of proofing this before giving it to you.” People are very forgiving with that four-step apology.
The first thing is the apology. Second is, to be toxic, it needs to be a pattern of these behaviors. John, we’re all a little uncivil at times. I might get rattled. I’m also a professor and I’m working with a doctoral student. I might treat him or her at times, maybe be a little short because I am rushed. If you acknowledge that, you know how to apologize appropriately for that. Third, if it’s not a pattern.
One of the key things to look for is if it becomes a pattern. If you’re working with an investor and you have a pattern of not being prepared like that then your investor is probably asking very good questions and will probably leave. If it’s not a pattern and you do something like that then an effective apology, there’s a high probability you’re going to rectify the situation.
Let’s just go over that because it’s really gold here, everybody. The Four Step Apology. The first step is the past?
First of all, frame it in the past. I’ve been running late for meetings. I’ve been running late for meetings for the past two months. Second, how that behavior affected the other individual?
Impact. I love what you said there Mitch, that it could impact that you’re going to trust me less. That’s really so important because when I coach people on what’s important to an investor is their credibility. The minute they don’t trust you, the minute they catch you in a lie about something in due diligence, the deal is off. I would love to have you give your insights on how can people improve their trust factor with people they’re just meeting? Any ideas on that?
First of all, the way you improve your trust factor is to empathize with the situation that they’re in. The best way to empathize is to talk about how you might have a similar experience. “The last time, when I was in your shoes, this is the way I felt.” A sense of empathy is extremely powerful.
If people no longer have trust in you, there’s a high probability you are not going to recover that.
What’s also interesting about trust, I did a research study with another colleague, Dr. Louellen Essex, some time ago that lead to our book, Breaking the Code of Silence. The subtitle is Prominent Leaders Reveal How They Rebounded from Seven Critical Mistakes. I’m not going to go over the seven mistakes here that are recoverable, but we found two mistakes that are likely not to be recovered. One is, a corroboration of trust. If people no longer have trust in you, there’s a high probability you are not going to recover that.
Now, if you make a mistake like the one that you were saying, something was wrong with one part of the document, I don’t really know if that’s trust. People might be saying, “I don’t know. Would he or she handle my portfolio properly?” If there’s a continuation of those errors, then there’s a high probability that trust is going to be an issue. The second thing we discovered is once someone doesn’t trust you, it is very difficult to regain that trust.
Absolutely. This is something that’s happened in the past. There’s an impact. You apologized. Then in the future, you’re going to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Let’s do a deep dive here, if we can, on how do you determine, because a founder creates a culture for his or her startup. They decide what kind of people they want to have working for them. They have an offer, or two if they’re fortunate and strategic, to get two different investors who want to give them the same amount of money. Everything else seems equal. Then they have to decide, who’s going to fit in to our culture better? Maybe they’ve talked to other people that that particular investor has given money too. What are the warning signs that they should be looking for or asking to see if that investor is suddenly going to turn toxic on them, maybe a year into the relationship or the first sign of a problem?
One of the ways to do this is to, first of all understand the four aspects of a culture since that’s what we’re talking about here. There are four basic aspects. One is the values, in terms of what I regard as important. With that, one of the first thing the individual is looking for, “Does this person value the same kinds of things that I do?”
First is values. Second, beliefs. Why are these values important? Third, norms. What are the unwritten rules the way we do things around here? Maybe one of the unwritten rules is, “In order to get what I want, I’m going to kick the table leg and I’m going to run people ragged.” With those norms, you have to decide, “Do I want to do business with the person like that?” Norms is the third. The fourth is underlying assumptions. What are the assumptions that people operate? I operate by treating people with respect. I operate when I make a mistake. I own it and share that with others. Subsequently, in terms of the culture, since that’s what you brought up John, those are the first pieces.
That’s great. Let’s just recap that really quick. Your value, your beliefs, your unwritten rules and your underlying assumptions. All of those four things, as someone who’s starting a company, you should think about because it’s so important to define the culture. It doesn’t just haphazardly happen and you can create a team to fit that culture you want. I love that.
This whole concept of unwritten rules. I remember working with a startup. Their unwritten rule was nobody picks up the phone. Everyone sends each other messages via Skype not text, not a phone call. That’s how they all communicated. Until you figured that out you’re like, “What’s going on? Why is nobody talking to each other? Why is nobody is answering my emails?” It’s like, “We don’t communicate that way.” “What a weird culture but okay. How is someone supposed to figure that out?” “They just do.” I’m like, “Jeez.”
One of the things, when I’m working with a client first time around and they’re looking at, “How do I introduce people to the organization,” I asked individuals, “What are the norms?” They fend for themselves. I’ll take two hours with them or I’ll put them through a one day program, at the end of that day, they still don’t know where they hang their hats at the end of the day. They’ve been riddled with one human resource form after another. I say, “Be sensitive. Help people become adjusted to the norms in your organization.” You can change norms. That’s the good news. If you have some norms that are not particularly welcoming those are easy to change.
[Tweet “Toxic people only thrive in a toxic system.”]
One of my favorite quotes from your book, Toxic Workplace is that, “Toxic people only thrive in a toxic system.” We’re going to tweet that out, as well, which I think really goes to what we’re just talking about. It’s the culture.
Absolutely. It’s the culture. Interesting, when we are working with organizations to help them change their culture to be a culture of everyday civility. What we help them understand is it is, first of all, very difficult without a systems approach to give feedback to a toxic individual.
Let me give you classic example. You’re trying to give feedback to an individual who’s shaming other people in public. You give them this feedback. The first thing that we discovered is most toxic people are clueless about the impact of their behavior on others.
Subsequently, if they’re clueless, they’re not going to accept your feedback very well. You try giving feedback in the most respectful way and they come back with, “I’m the only individual who has the guts to say something. All the rest of you individuals, you’re just sitting there doing nothing. I’m the one who’s carrying this team.” Highly narcissistic behavior, by the way.
Without the organization sanctioning that you, as a leader, can do this, you’re going to be talking to the wind because they know you’re going to do nothing.
Here’s where the system comes into place. You give this person the same feedback and now you say, “I understand you don’t agree with this feedback. However, I’m not asking you to agree with it. If you don’t agree with it and if you’re behavior doesn’t change, here’s the first thing that’s going to happen. Here’s the second. Ultimately, you could be fired.” Now, without a systems approach for this and without the organization sanctioning that you, as a leader, can do this, you’re going to be talking to the wind because he or she knows you’re going to do nothing.
Subsequently, we say to individuals, you really have to have systems in place. Let me give you an example from health care. Health care is the one industry John, that has done more than any other industry in changing the face of respectful engagement. Here’s some statistics that are going to astound you and astound your listeners. This is one study after another. Essentially, 60 to 80% of the medical errors are due to disruptive individuals. People not communicating with each other. 60% to 80%.
I was doing a keynote address one time to a large non-health care group. I reported this, 500 people in the room. A gentleman raised his hand and says, “Mitch, this is unbelievable. Just last night, my wife, who is a nurse, reported that she could not read the medication order. Rather than go to a physician who she knew was going to shame her, she went to four to five other individuals to interpret that order.”
[Tweet “Everyday civility is a key to productivity.”]
What a waste of time? Someone’s waiting for the medicine. It’s just shocking, isn’t it?
Absolutely. Here’s a follow-up. I related the story to a group of health care leaders. There was a surgeon in the room. The surgeon said, “Mitch, I don’t agree with you. I need to do this because I need to have perfection.” The surgeon, she said to me that, “Mitch, do you want to go to a non-perfect surgeon?” I said, “Doctor, I want to go to a surgeon. When he or she is about to make a mistake, someone is calling them on that.”
Because it’s safe enough to raise their hand without getting their head chopped off.
Exactly. You’ve got it.
You talked about in your book, this toxic workplace typically, just the tip of the iceberg. What’s below the ice? What’s below the surface usually?
What’s below the surface are number of things. One that’s below the surface is the impact this has on others. Health care gave you an example. Another impact, we found that 51% of people who are targets of instability, reported that they are likely to quit the organization. Turnover is something you typically don’t see. Secondly, the reason we don’t see it, is many toxic individuals are chameleons. They’re very capable of kissing up to their boss and kicking down to people below them.
What happens is, the boss says, “I know she’s a little bit hard on individuals as the leader of her team, but man, is she bringing the money into the organization. She’s highly productive.” Underneath the iceberg, that leader, the boss, is not aware of the individuals who are leaving, the individuals who are not doing as effective job as they could because they’re not committed to the organization and to that team.
You just mentioned something really key there, which is the cost of turnover, especially in a startup with someone who has so much valuable experience and intellectual property in their head. They will go someplace else that’s not so toxic. To start all over again and have to find somebody who is expensive and a waste of productivity, over and above whether it’s a small or big company. I think that’s something that people really don’t typically measure as the cause of having a toxic workplace.
They typically don’t, a few studies have. First, of all we’ve measured this and we found that 51% reported to us are likely to leave. Other human resource metrics have found that the cost of replacing an individual depending upon their level in the organization and their level of expertise is anywhere from 150% to 400% times their salary. You have some highly sophisticated, wise individuals in that organization, and they leave because of this. They may not tell you why they’re leaving. The cost of replacing them, retraining them, the cost of recruiting 150% to 400% of their salary.
Now, you also talked about in your book, Toxic Workplace, that if you let this go, it literally spreads like that whole analogy of one bad apple. Can you talk a little about warning signs that it’s spreading?
First of all, the warning signs it’s spreading is look at turnover on your team. That’s one of the high pieces. Secondly, if people won’t tell you what’s going on in the organization, you can’t get to the bottom of it. Those are two critical dimensions to figure out what’s going on. The other strategy that we talked about in our book is called the Skip Level Discussion. If most of your listeners are familiar with 360 degree feedback, where you get anonymous feedback from everybody around you, that’s in some kind of a survey. What we’re talking about with the Skip Level Discussion is a way to keep your ear to the ground as the leader.
I learned these years and years ago in an organization that I was head of leadership development. It goes something like this. The leader says, “I really want to hear what’s going on positively and negatively in my group.” Let’s just say you’re a vice-president. I’m going to go two levels down, to people who are reporting to the person reporting to me or the people reporting to me. Twice a year, I’m going to spend 15 to 30 minutes asking you, “What’s going right? What’s going wrong? Are you getting the kind of leadership you need?”
Now, the first response when I teach this to organizations, “People aren’t going to tell the truth.” However, if people are really dissatisfied, they may. The other thing that I say to individuals is the leaders saying this to the organization, “I want you to come and tell me what’s going on. If you feel threatened, feel free to come with two or three individuals together.” A leader is not going to fire three people for having problems with his or her boss. That’s another strategy that we talk about in our book, the Skip Level Discussion.
Fascinating. I’m also interested to see, with your experience, do you get feedback from someone saying, “I don’t know if they’re humiliating me or shaming me, but they’re always condescending.” Is that part of being in a toxic environment?
The condescending comes under the second and passive hostility. You get your anger out in crooked ways.
The condescending comes under the second and passive hostility. You get your anger out in crooked ways. It comes out in a condescending way. If that’s how an individual is giving feedback, there’s a high probability that individual is toxic. I bet they’ve heard this before, too. They may be clueless about the impact of that behavior on others. What we’re saying about cluelessness is they may understand, “Yes, I’m rough and at times I’m really hard on people.” But they may not truly understand the amount of sleepless nights that individual is having as a target of that. They may not understand how much that individual has reduced their work effort. They may not understand how hard that individual is trying to find another job. They may not understand the sick leave that that individual is taking.
If it’s not turnover, then a lot of people will call in sick because you made them so sick with stress or just the dread of having to interact with you. We’ve talked about shaming and humiliating, being the difference in the intent. We just talked now about this passive feedback through condescension. Let’s talk about that second part you talked about of the types of toxic behavior, which is all about sabotage. What does that look like in the story?
Here’s a scenario that happened recently. This one individual who was highly toxic ended up, because he was not getting the kind of kudos that he wanted on the team and from the team, decided to sabotage some of their efforts. Actually, changed some protocols etc. to steer the team the wrong way.
Another interesting thing about what happens with teams is, it’s a process that Elizabeth Holloway and I, Elizabeth, again is my co-author, we call it secondary gain. If you will, imagine you’re on a team and you’re not the toxic individual and the team is constantly looking at the antics of this toxic individual. They start talking about, “Can you believe the way she just talked to the CEO of this company? Can you believe the way he talked to this potential investor?” What happens is this gossiping turns into secondary gain. They get a lot of gain out of talking about, “Ain’t it awful?” Then an interesting dynamic occurs. If for some reason that toxic individual is fired or he or she leaves the organization, they often don’t know how to relate positively to each other because what was the cohesive glue was talking about the toxic person.
One of the things that we do when we’re doing team development with a team that has engaged in that, now that toxic individual is gone, we allow them a certain period of time to talk about how ‘ain’t it awful’ and ‘can you believe what he or she did.’ Then they cannot talk about it anymore. They now have to move on because that person is no longer part of the team.
Really, really great. Is there any final bit of advice you have for us Mitch, On what we can do to try and prevent getting in bed, so to speak, hiring, taking money from investor that might be toxic? Besides just doing your due diligence, is there other signs that we could really avoid?
Here’s one, and we call it the Recruiting Cue Sheet. Let me start by first telling you a story that an individual was being hired in an organization. The hiring manager could not be there immediately at the airport. The administrative assistant went to the airport to greet this candidate. The administrative assistant was trying to be cordial, engaging. The person who is coming in for the interview was just answering questions in a monosyllabic way. The administrative assistant said, “She’s probably nervous. It’s a high level position.” Until the hiring manager showed up. Then, this individual was absolutely brilliant, exuberant, asking one great question after another. The administrative assistant was looking to himself saying, “What did I do?” He didn’t do anything.
Remember when I talked about earlier John, that many of these individuals are chameleons. They’re very capable of kissing up and kicking down. I would not hire that individual because there’s a high probability that this person coming in is going to kiss up and kick down. What do you do about it? We have a process that we call the Recruiting Cue Sheet.
[Tweet “Avoid people who kiss up or kick down.”]
I understand that we should have some team interviews and one-on-one and bringing the team together, as well. There are number of individuals, like the administrative assistant, that this investor is going to interact with even for a minute or two. Here’s the strategy, you as the individual thinking about this investor, whether or not you want to work with him or her, you go around to the individuals who are likely to interact with that individual. Maybe it’s the administrative assistant. Maybe it’s the cafeteria people. It could be maintenance people.
You go up to them and say, “You may or may not have an opportunity to interact with this individual, but if you do, I’d like you to answer these three questions on this form.” I’ll make that up off the top of my head now. One question is, “Did the person give you eye contact?” Second, “Did the person engage you in conversation?” Third, “Does this person look like the kind of person that we want to work with?” Ask those individuals. If you get a different story from what you have perceived, just have your red flag go up and say, “This may be the individual that we don’t want to work with.
Nice, fantastic. Mitch, this has been great. How can people follow you on social media?
One is, first of all, my website www.MitchellKusy.com is one arena. I guess that would be the primary one because that’s how I use that as my primary vehicle for people to get in touch with me. They could read some of the latest work that I’ve done in the area. That would be a great resource for them.
Fantastic. Thanks again for sharing all the secrets on how to avoid creating or staying in a toxic workplace.
Thank you, John. I enjoyed it.
Me too.
Links Mentioned
- J Robinett Enterprises
- John Livesay Funding Strategist
- Mitch Kusy
- Toxic Workplace – book
- Dr. Elizabeth Holloway
- Dr. Louellen Essex
- Breaking the Code of Silence – book
- www.MitchellKusy.com
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Unleash Your Inner Company with John Chisholm
Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments
Episode Summary
Today’s guest on The Successful Pitch is John Chisholm, the author of Unleash Your Inner Company. He has such an impressive background from MIT and Harvard and has coached thousands of entrepreneurs on how to be successful. He shares those secrets with us today. In fact, he said, “Passion is an attitude but perseverance is a behavior.” He does a deep dive into the psychology of growing your mind from the inside out. He really shares what he looks for when he hears a pitch as an investor. I think you’re going to get a lot of value into learning what it takes to reduce the risk by hitting certain milestones and showing an upside potential so that your pitch becomes irresistible. Enjoy the episode.
Listen To The Episode Here
Unleash Your Inner Company with John Chisholm
I am thrilled to have John Chisholm today as my special guest. John has an amazing background. He went to MIT. In fact, he’s now president of the MIT Alumni Association. From there, he went to Harvard. He was one of the early employees at Hewlett-Packard and Silicon Valley. He has an amazing book called Unleash Your Inner Company. He has also founded two companies. He co-founded a third. He sold a fourth company. He’s advised literally thousands of entrepreneurs across five continents. John, welcome to the show.
John, thanks so much for having me.
I have so much respect and insight for what you’re doing. You have such an amazing career and journey. Let’s start with this whole concept of you’ve been both an entrepreneur and an angel investor. Let’s just dive right in. What do you listen for when you hear a pitch?
Unleash Your Inner Company: Use Passion and Perseverance to Build Your Ideal Business
I think it’s helpful to have been an entrepreneur, when you’re both evaluating pitches and trying to be helpful to entrepreneurs, I listen very closely for a real unsatisfied customer need. Until I hear one, it’s hard for me to get very excited or to be very focused on the opportunity. So many entrepreneurs focus on their really cool technology rather than a real customer need. I like to say, I started my first company with a really cool technology for which there was no customer need. It took me six to nine months to let go of that cool technology and swap it in favor of something for which there was a real customer need, namely doing surveys on the internet.
My first company which I founded in 1992 was Decisive Technology which published the first software for automated surveys via email and later via the internet. Start with a real customer need, that way you know that your business will be addressing a real customer need. It’s okay to use your resources, including your technologies if you have some, to suggest real customer needs, but make certain that you’re satisfying one. In the book, I talk about ways to come up with a potentially infinite number of unsatisfied customer needs even just in the areas you’re passionate about and to test them and to confirm that they’re real.
How do you suggest somebody test that the problem is real? Do you have any ideas on that?
Yes. First of all, let me talk about how you come up with unsatisfied customer needs. Start with any product or service in an area that you’re passionate about. For example, you’re passionate about running. One of the products and services we runners use are running shoes. Then ask yourself, what are the limitations of that product or service? I can think of three for my running shoes. Number one, they start to smell after I’ve worn them too many times. Two, if I want to change the shoelaces to match the color of my outfit, it’s a hassle to thread and re-thread them every time, two laces of different colors. Three, the shoes don’t tell me how far I’ve run or how fast I’ve run and they should know that, shouldn’t they? Those are three possible customer needs.
I have to confirm that they’re real and unsatisfied. Real means that other people besides just me have the need that means talking to people, going online seeing if other people seem to have the need, doing interviews. Also, I have to confirm that they’re unsatisfied, which means that another product or service isn’t already satisfying them. That means seeing what products and services are currently available, going to shoe stores. If I can satisfy myself that they are real and unsatisfied, great. That’s an opportunity for me to come up with a possible solution to that need. Let’s say, I can’t find anyone who addresses the problem of changing shoelaces easily to match the color of my outfit. That’s an opportunity to be creative and maybe I can think of a way to let a set of shoelaces to snap on or off. For the other needs, the shoes that smell and the shoes that don’t tell me how far or fast I’ve run, there are obviously solutions for those footpads and sprays and so forth.
Then ask yourself, what are the limitations of those solutions? Sprays have to be done every day. Footpads have to be changed frequently. What if there were a way to go for weeks or months without having to use the spray or change the footpads? That would have some advantages over the current product. Now, I have a new potential customer need that is the leftover need from the original need that’s not fully satisfied by the product or service currently available. Similarly, for the shoes that don’t tell me how far or fast I’ve run, there are solutions to those. There are Fitbits, there are odometers and so forth that you can wear while you’re running, but those I have to put on and take off. What if there was a way to have it built into the shoes so that I didn’t have to worry about putting it on or taking it off? Then that’s another potential need.
You can see I started out with a single product or service in an area that I’m passionate about. It blossoms into a tree of potential unsatisfied customer needs that I can consider evaluating. That’s how you can get a potentially infinite number of unsatisfied customer needs from even just one product or service in an area that you’re passionate about.
Unleash Your Inner Company: Come up with unsatisfied customer needs.
That’s so helpful. I’m always telling everybody: when you pitch, paint a picture. You just did that for us, John. You talked about it blossoming into a tree and you showed us how each branch leads to another branch by this logical way of exploring what the problem is. You’re really getting into the head of a potential customer’s problem that they may not have even thought about. “Yeah, my shoes smell.” They accept it. If you can really figure out a way to prevent that, they would love it. That’s really helpful.
John, sometimes I hear from budding entrepreneurs, “What if my areas that I’m passionate about aren’t very business oriented?” Let’s say I’m passionate about long hot baths, kittens and comic books. None of these sound very businesslike, do they? But even in these areas, there are potentially an infinite number of unsatisfied customer needs.
Warm hot baths. People like to read, listen to music, talk on the phone when they’re in the tub. How about a floating waterproof case for my iPad or iPhone that lets me do those things when I’m in the tub? Kittens. They lose a lot of their cuddliness when they grow up to be cats, don’t they? What about a diet or genetic therapy that allowed a kitten to stay a kitten its entire life? There would be a lot of demand for that, wouldn’t there? Comic books. The hugely successful and popular tradeshow Comic Con in San Diego attracts about 150,000 people. Hugely profitable, people sign up, attend dressed up as their favorite comic book character. No matter what your passion is, even if they don’t seem very businesslike, like those three, there will be unsatisfied customer needs in those areas. You just need to find them.
I love that. I’ve actually been to Comic Con. Talk about finding people who are passionate. This enthusiasm, whether it’s somebody who rides a Harley and they get that tattooed or the Nike people that get the swish tattooed. If you’re that passionate and there’s a whole other group of people that are equally passionate about what you’re doing, that’s great advice, is to focus on solving that problem and you’ll solve other people’s problems. In your book John, you talk about using passion and perseverance as a positive feedback loop, which is just the very beginning of Unleash Your Inner Company. I would love to have you talk about, how we can get a positive feedback loop going in our own head?
What do we mean by positive feedback loop? I mean people or things that reinforce each other. Passion is an attitude, perseverance is a behavior. In many aspects of our lives, our attitudes and behaviors reinforce each other. If I deeply love an activity, you know how the hours can go by like minutes when I’m engaged in that activity. It’s easy to persevere in those circumstances. That’s an example of passion driving perseverance. Similarly, if I just stick with an activity long enough so I start to get good at it and then get better at it and then start to like it and then start to love it, that’s an example of perseverance driving passion.
If you can think of any aspect of your life where you’ve experienced this positive feedback between passion and perseverance, that’s probably a really good area to consider starting a new business. It could be in any realm of life. It could be in family, sports, some area of scholarship, travel. You name it.
[Tweet “Unleash Your Inner Company: Passion is an attitude, perseverance is a behavior.”]
You talk about the psychology of entrepreneurship, and certainly passion and perseverance is a big part of that. Is there anything else that you want to share with us about the importance of the psychology of entrepreneurship?
I have an entire chapter in the book called Growing Your Mind from the Inside Out. It’s really hard to start a business. You’ll run up against lots of obstacles. I talk about many of the obstacles I’ve run up against in the last 25 years starting businesses. I’ve had to lay off people, cut back salaries, factor receivables so I had enough cash to make payroll. At one point I reduced my salary to minimum wage. We had to move to smaller more modest offices. All of these are hard and humbling steps to take. You have to be very deliberate about building your own self confidence to be successful as an entrepreneur in my experience, or at least it’s helpful to do so.
In this chapter, Growing Your Mind from the Inside Out, I offer a number of techniques. One of the techniques I offer is this: If there is some aspect of yourself that you genuinely can’t change, find a way to view it as an asset. I use myself as an example. When I was in my early 30’s, I accepted the fact that I’m gay. Most people wouldn’t view that as an asset, at least from a business standpoint. I disagree. For me, it’s been an asset for at least five different reasons.
[Tweet “Unleash Your Inner Company: Growing Your Mind from the Inside Out”]
One, when you are growing up gay, you know unambiguously with absolute certainty that at least some of the world’s routine assumptions aren’t wrong. People routinely assume that guys are attracted to girls and vice versa. You know that it’s not universally correct. I think growing up gay has helped me not necessarily accept the status quo, think outside the box. That’s made me a better entrepreneur and executive. Two, it wasn’t socially acceptable to be openly gay when I was growing up and so at least some of the energy I might’ve put into dating, I put into sports, studying and career instead. 30 years later, I’m hugely enjoying the benefit of that early investment. Maybe I wouldn’t have gone to MIT if I hadn’t been gay.
Three, I’m not a minority in any sense that I can think of other than being gay, so it has sensitized me to what it’s like to be a minority. Four, when people see that I’m not trying to hide my sexual orientation, they can see I’m being honest with them and that helps build trust between us. Five, I think it further conveys that I have strength and reserve if I can be open about the fact that I’m gay.
Similarly, if there’s some aspect of yourself that you genuinely can’t change, find a way to view it as an asset. Set the bar very high. Don’t use this as an excuse to accept some aspect of yourself that you can change and would like to change. If you genuinely can’t change it, if you can find a way to view it as an asset, it’ll be hugely empowering for you as it was for me. That aspect of yourself will become one of your strengths.
A few years ago, I was telling this exact same story to a group of undergraduates in Guatemala in an auditorium. About half way back in the auditorium, a young man was sitting. As I spoke, he slowly made a fist and gently moved it up to his chest and pressed it against his chest. At first I thought it was a small gesture of agreement or support for what I was saying. Then, when I looked again, I could see he wasn’t making a fist at all. His hand had no fingers on it. I imagine he was saying, “This I cannot change. This is my strength.”
[Tweet “Unleash Your Inner Company: Turn your challenges into an asset.”]
How moving. I love what you said so much. I personally relate to it as I’m also gay. I know that before I was comfortable talking about that, it was always a secret that you’re keeping. In order for anybody to trust you, I’m a big believer that before anybody wants to work with you, hire you, invest in you, they have to trust you. The best way to be trustworthy is to be authentically who you are, because otherwise people feel like you’re hiding something and they can’t put their finger on it. If you’re comfortable with who you are, more times out of not then other people are too. They pick up your energy, whether you like yourself or not. Thank you for sharing that so much. It’s so great.
One of the questions I always get asked by people I’m helping with their pitch is, “Is this the right time for me to be looking for money? Do I have to have a lot of traction or can I get funded with just an idea and a minimum viable product?” What are your thoughts on that?
Unleash Your Inner Company: I definitely think there are right times in a startup’s life to raise money.
I definitely think there are right times in a startup’s life to raise money. They’re not when you’re running out of cash. Then you have no credibility or negotiating leverage at all. They’re not even when you’re about to run out of money. I would say that the right times are when you either, A) significantly in reduced risk or B) significantly increase your upside potential as perceived by the investor. Let me say a word or two about both of those.
First of all, significantly reduced risk as perceived by the investor. What do I mean by that? Each time your company reaches a milestone, such as a positive cash flow of revenue, your first customer, your first working prototype, each time you reach one of those milestones, you have eliminated a risk in the business. If you have positive cash flow, you’ve eliminated the risk that you can get revenue. If you have revenue, you’ve eliminated the risk that you can get customers. If you have customers, you’ve eliminated the risk that the market will accept your product. If your market is accepting the product, that eliminates the risk that your prototype works, and so forth. Each time you can reach one of those milestones you have significantly eliminated or reduced a risk to the investor.
If you’re about to achieve one of those milestones, that’s a particularly good time to raise money, both before and after. Let’s say you’re very confident that you’ll achieve one those milestones in the next 60 to 90 days, schedule a time to visit the investor. Layout your value-add, the customer need that you satisfy, your solution, your team, your track record and so forth. Say to them that in the next 60 to 90 days, you will achieve this milestone. Then, ask if you can come back 60 to 90 days later after you’ve done so. Then go ahead, achieve that milestone, go back and talk to the investor again. That starts building your credibility with the investor even before they become an investor.
I love that. You said two things that I really want people to have as a big take away. One, don’t wait until you’re running out of money to seek money because you’re desperate. Just like in dating, nobody wants to date someone who’s “desperate.” What you just said here is just so important. Investors invest in who you are, your integrity and how you think. John just laid out for you step by step what to do, to prove that you have integrity, that you do what you say you’re going to do because you have thought through something. That your word means something because then they know if they invest in you going forward and you say you’re going to deliver a milestone, odds are you will because you’ve already proven it to them.
Beautiful, John. Thank you so much. They may or may not invest in that round but they’ll remember, “Those were the guys who said that they were going to do X and who did X.” You’ve made a positive impression, they could well be investors on the subsequent round. That’s one set of times when it is a good time to raise money, in my experience. A second set of times are the converse of reducing risk, which is right after you increase upside potential.
One of the things I talk about in the book, Unleash Your Inner Company, is the bowling pin model. Think of the growth of your business over the next three to five years as a series of bowling pins. You knock down the first bowling pin, that bowling pin helps you knock down the next bowling pin, the next, and next and so forth. Each of the bowling pins is a customer or market opportunity. It could be a city. It could be a vertical market.
Let’s say you’re located in San Francisco. Your first bowling pin might be the region of San Francisco, where you live. Your next bowling pin might be the city of San Francisco. Then the next bowling pin might be Oakland, which is a nearby city, then Sacramento, then San Jose, then Los Angeles. Establishing a market presence and awareness and customer base in each of those cities will help you further penetrate the next city. These bowling pins could be vertical markets instead. If you’re in IT, maybe it’s accounting as an application for your software. Maybe it’s supply chain management, maybe it’s customer relationship management and so forth. You could grow that way.
Unleash Your Inner Company: What builds confidence in the investor’s mind that your company has upside potential is when it’s really credible.
What builds confidence in the investor’s mind that your company has upside potential is when it’s really credible, that by knocking down one bowling pin, it will indeed help you knock down the next bowling pin, the next and so forth. One way that you can help build that credibility is by showing that you’ve knocked down one bowling pin and it is helping you already start to knock down the next bowling pin. I’ve got a set of customers in one vertical market, maybe the markets are like retail, maybe they’re B2B customers in retail financial services, telecom and so forth. Maybe your initial set of customers is in financial services and you are expanding from that base into retail or into telecom or vice versa. The first few customers that you get in the telecom space or whatever the next bowling pin is, that builds the credibility that it really is true that by knocking down one bowling pin you can knock down many bowling pins.
Again, another really good time to raise money right before and after, when you’re very confident that the first customer or cluster of customers in the adjacent vertical market or whatever the market is will be knocked down. Let your potential investors know that you’ll be achieving that within 60 to 90 days. Go out and do it, then come back to them 60 to 90 days later and show them that you’ve done it. This technique is like a two-edge sword. If you succeed in doing what you set out to do and said you’re going to do, it is a huge win. If you fall significantly short of doing what you said you were going to do, that’s a big negative. You want to be very confident that you are going to achieve whatever it is you’re going to achieve in the next 60 to 90 days. If you need to wait a little bit longer to make absolutely certain that you’re going to do it, that is something you might well consider. All of this raises the question, how would I fund my business in the interim until I’m at a point to raise money?
In the book, I laid out three different ways to fund your business in the interim until you’re at a point where you can attract outside investment. They are, number one, living frugally yourself. In the book, I offered the example of my friend, Nick Winter, a successful entrepreneur here in San Francisco, who has reduced his physical possessions to exactly 99 things. He has one laptop, one cellphone, two pairs of jeans, one wedding ring and so forth. My list on 99 things is in the book. This is an extreme case of minimalist living, which seems to me is an emerging trend.
I know that I have experienced downsizing from a big spacious three-story town house in Menlo Park to a compact town house in the town of San Francisco seven years ago. When I did, I had a whole new sense of freedom from having to take care of day to day maintenance on my house. When I clean out a closet or my kitchen and free up space in the closets, I have a new set of freedom and spaciousness. I haven’t gone to the extreme that Nick has but I can certainly empathize with how simplifying your life and minimalist living frees up mindshare and money to invest in your business. In the book, I talk about how skipping Starbucks can save you $1,250 a year, which is enough to buy a very nice coffee machine with gourmet coffee for several employees for the first few months that you’re in business. Living frugally is one technique, and freeing up mind share, resources and cash to invest in your business.
Two is providing services. If there is some skill that you are uniquely skilled at and expert at, then potentially you can offer those services as a way to generate revenue to fund your business. For my second company, which was in enterprise feedback management, which means automating the customer feedback and surveys for corporations, we had learned about that field from my first company, Decisive. The second company was called CustomerSat, the website is still CustomerSat.com. We had early experience in doing surveys. For my second company, we used the product of my first company to do large scale surveys for corporations and used the earnings that we made from those services to fund the development of our platform for the second company.
Unleash Your Inner Company: Use whatever skills you have to generate cash to fund the development of your new technology.
You can do the same. Use whatever skills you have to generate cash to fund the development of your new technology. If the skills that you’re providing or the services you’re providing relate to the new business, so much the better. In fact, that’s the ideal case because there you’re not only generating funds, but you’re building customer relationships, you’re learning about customer requirements and all of that. You can fold it into the new company that you’re starting.
The third way is friends and family. If your friends and family see that you’re living frugally, see that you’re serious enough about your venture to provide services to fund it, then that will show them how serious you are about that new venture and make them receptive to consider investing in your new venture or lending to you for your new venture. Those are three techniques that you could use before you reach the point where you’re ready to either get crowd funding, angel investing or approach a venture capital firm.
That’s so helpful. Live frugally so that investors feel like you’re going to be good stewards of their money. Provide a service as a way to generate additional revenue for yourself in the interim. Especially if, let’s say, you’re really great at tech and that’s what you’re bringing to your start up, then you could probably get hired as a tech consultant. Those people that are hiring you could even become customers. I always like to say, if you really hit the jackpot, you come up with a startup idea that a customer becomes an investor because they love what you’re doing so much. Have you ever seen that or experienced that yourself, John?
Absolutely. The company I co-founded two and a half years ago, Pyze.com, their largest investor came to them directly through one of their customers. Incidentally,if any of your listeners are developing mobile apps, they should check out Pyze.com because the applet gives their mobile app a ton of customer intelligence, free of charge in the basic version of the product.
That’s great. Unleash Your Inner Company has received over 85 five star reviews on Amazon, soon to be 86 when I get on there. How did you come up with the name of your book? I’m always interested in that story of origin.
The catalyst for writing the book was a TED Talk. After I sold my last company in 2009, I was invited to talk to young entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley. I started out with a 30-minute talk and then a 90-minute talk, then a half-day workshop, and a full-day workshop. Then I was invited to give a TEDx Talk, which meant cutting it back to eighteen minutes. I had a full day of material. I had to figure out what was the most important for the eighteen minutes. That process of deciding what was most important and distilling the most important parts to eighteen minutes was so clarifying. I realized for the first time after I’ve done that I could turn this into a book. That TED Talk is a TEDxUFM, University of San Francisco Marroquin in Guatemala.
That was 2011, I already had a great deal of material to work with. Originally, the name of the talk was Release Your Inner Company but then I changed it to Unleash Your Inner Company because that seemed more powerful. I spent about a day a week in 2011, two days a week 2012. It was a full time activity by 2014. I finally submitted the book to my publisher in 2015. It was five years in the making. A labor of love. Probably on average about a half time activity over that five years. The book came out in October 2015. It’s now been out for almost a year and a half.
What’s the best way for people to follow you? Obviously, we’re going to put the link to buy Unleash Your Inner Company on Amazon. You have a wonderful website called JohnChisholmVentures.com. Your Twitter handle is just your name?
It’s @johndchisholm. The website for the book is www.UnleashYourInnerCompany.com. The website for my consultancy in angel investing practice is www.JohnChisholmVentures.com.
John, I can’t thank you enough for sharing your wisdom, your insight, your passion and your expertise on how we can all learn to unleash our inner company and make it happen with the passion and perseverance that you’ve clearly shown and continue to show in the way that you live your life.
John, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.
My pleasure.
Links Mentioned
- J Robinett Enterprises
- John Livesay Funding Strategist
- Unleash Your Inner Company – book
- CustomerSat.com
- Pyze.com
- Unleash Your Inner Company – book on Amazon
- JohnChisholmVentures.com
- John Chisholm TEDxUFM
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Get Interview Connections with Jessica Rhodes
Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments
Episode Summary
Today’s guest on The Successful Pitch is Jessica Rhodes who is the founder of Interview Connections. She’s an entrepreneur that found a niche of helping people get booked on podcasts as a guest. She also helps podcast hosts find the best guest. She talks about how she figured out that that was what she was really passionate about. When she had her why, she took off. People really know that they can trust Jessica to find them the right guest, very similar to how investors trust Judy Robinett and I to find them the right startups to put in front of them to hear a good pitch.
Jessica has great insights today on what it takes to be a successful entrepreneur, how to get someone to pitch you in the right way. Most importantly, the catalyst connector that she is, talks about the chemistry that is so important in matching up people. Whether it’s getting somebody on the right show or in the case of a startup, getting them in the right room with the right investor.
Listen To The Episode Here
Get Interview Connections with Jessica Rhodes
Hello. Welcome to The Successful Pitch. Today’s guest is Jessica Rhodes, who is the founder and CEO of Interview Connections, the premier guest booking agency for podcasters and guest experts. She literally is the person that gets me on this amazing podcast. She’s an entrepreneur herself. I wanted to have her on because she knows how to rock the podcast from both sides of the mic. I have found a lot of startups who can get themselves on a podcast, get tremendous social proof for investors that what they’re doing is newsworthy and interesting.
Jessica is also the host of Interview Connections TV where each week she helps her viewers rock that podcast, as I’ve mentioned. She host three podcasts herself, Rhodes to Success, The Podcast Producers and The Parenting Rhodes. She was selected by Apple as a How to Podcast show in iTunes, and has a whole syllabus for a course about podcasting from Western University in Ontario. Jessica, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me, John. I’m so excited to be here.
You are the expert on podcasting and entrepreneurship in particular. You grew up in a family of entrepreneurs. I want to hear how you became you, from a standpoint of how did you decide what problem you were going to solve and decide that podcasting and getting people on shows was the answer.
My dad is an entrepreneur. It’s in my blood in a way. When my husband and I started a family and I was pregnant with our first child, I was very committed to leaving my job and being a stay-at-home mom. My husband, being a nonprofit, one nonprofit income was not enough to support a whole family. I was talking with my parents who are both really supportive of me being that home mom. My dad said, “Why don’t you start a virtual assistant business and you could work from a home office, create your own schedule.” I really had no idea what that entailed. I didn’t know anything about the online business world. I was working in nonprofit, running a door-to-door field campus. I barely knew what Twitter was. Getting into online marketing and podcasting, this was all a whole new world.
I started as my dad’s virtual assistant and I was doing a lot of different tasks.
My dad said, “Listen,” because he was so supportive of me wanting to be a stay-at-home mom, “I’ll help you.” He has written a lot of books about business. He has several businesses. He’s a business coach. He said, “Read my books. I’ll be your first client.” I started as his virtual assistant and I was doing a lot of different tasks. I was doing his Pinterest marketing, creating infographics, client support work, general VA work. Then, in about April 2013, he said, “Why don’t you start getting me on podcasts? When I get interviewed, it’s a great way for me to get exposure to new people, connect with new followers and fans.” I said, “Sure.” I started just researching for business podcasts and really just figured it out as I went. He started referring a couple of his friends to work with me as well. As I was pitching podcasters, as I was making these connections, I started having hosts ask me about what I did.
I wasn’t really thinking like an entrepreneur at that point because my dad was basically my only client. I had a couple other VA clients, but I really felt like I got an at-home job. I didn’t think about myself as this authority figure and this expert. I was just doing something and somebody was paying me to do it. I started to get this light bulb where I wanted to make more money in my business. I wanted to be more efficient with my time because my son was a little baby, and he was starting to nap less. I’m like, “If I’m going to make any money, I need to change something.”
I talked with my dad. I realized that out of all the VA tasks that I was doing, booking podcast interviews was something that people were really interested in. I was getting a lot of interest and it was something that I enjoyed a lot too. He helped me figure out how to niche down and start InterviewConnections.com and have my main service be podcast interviews, and booking podcast interviews, finding podcast guests, and eventually also getting people on shows.
What you said there about niching down is something I really want to dive into, because I work with clients all the time and I tell them, “When you’re going to pitch an investor for funding …” One investor said to me, “Don’t try to boil the ocean. Start with a cup of water.” People forget that Amazon just sold books. When you are a specialist and have one thing that you do really well better than anybody else, then you can expand into other things, that really separates you from everybody else and all the other, at that time, VAs. You’re the specialist in getting people on podcasts. Your network becomes really valuable because you know how to do it.
Let me do a little exercise with you because I’m fascinated to hear your answers on this, as it relates to you as an entrepreneur. One of the things that investors will often ask people pitching them for money is, what’s the why behind your why? In other words, why are you so passionate about helping people who need to get on podcasts do this? It’s going to be more than just making money for your family because there’s a passion there. Can you tell us a little bit about what’s your why behind the why?
The why behind the why. The main reason, the why behind the why, I started to figure out back when I was niching down from being a general VA into podcast interviews, when my dad asked me, “Okay, out of all these tasks that you’re doing, what do you enjoy the most? What’s the most profitable? What’s in highest demand?” The reason I said I enjoy the podcast booking the most is because I’m bringing people together, like I am a connector. Some people call me a matchmaker for podcasters and guests. I absolutely love seeing the relationships that come out of an introduction that me or my team made. It’s so, so fun to watch.
I think it was in Chicago for Podcast Movement, I brought clients out to dinner. Two of my clients, they didn’t know each other before then, but they both came out to the client dinner. They are now accountability partners. Every Monday, they’re talking and it was just so great. I just love that. They are now such good friends and helping each other. That’s just one example of relationships and friendships that start because of how I brought people together. That’s really my big why. I’m sure there’s ways that I could be making more money or other businesses that I’m more profitable or something or easier, maybe not as labor intensive. John, I love bringing people together. I’m an extrovert too. I like to talk a lot. I’m pretty social. I love this business.
It comes across in your voice and it comes across the way you treat your clients, since I’m one, I know firsthand. I can’t emphasize that enough to everybody listening to this, how important it is that your personal passion come through when you’re pitching. Let’s give an example of that. Before we jump into that, I want to talk about what you’ve done for me personally, which is you’ve gotten me on some amazing podcasts as a guest from EOFire to even introducing me to someone who hosts a podcast about 3D printing. While you said, “You’re not the right guest for that podcast, she also happens to write articles for Inc Magazine and is interested in interviewing you.” I almost fell off my chair. Talk about relationships.
Now, I have a quote from Inc Magazine calling me The Pitch Whisper, which I ended up putting on my cover of my book. I’ve become great friends with her. The relationships, the way I see you, Jessica, because I’m all about helping people craft a tagline, something that makes you memorable, like if I’m The Pitch Whisper, you’re the Catalyst for Connections. You bring your special sauce, your chemistry. You know whose personality is going to click with who. Who’s going to be a good guest? Who’s going to be a good host? I think that little alliteration, Catalyst for Connection, takes it to another level of, “Oh, you have the magic alchemy to make that magic chemistry that happens between people, whether they’re dating or just really liking each other as friends and business come to life.” That’s really your secret sauce from my observation and experience.
I would definitely agree with that because it’s hard to explain to people. Obviously I get asked by potential clients or new clients, “How do you find the shows? How do you know they’re a good fit? How big is the audience?” I’m like, “I don’t know how big the audience is. I don’t know these certain things, but I know. I’m the connection catalyst.” I can tell when I look through their website, when I listen to the show, when I read their About section, I learn about the host. I can tune in and know pretty easily if two people are going to be a good match for each other in an interview or as friends or what have you.
That’s really what it’s all about when you’re pitching an investor, is you have to have that chemistry with them because they’re not just giving you money. They’re becoming a part of your culture and either it’s a good fit or not. That is so key to be able to tell upfront. Let’s talk about your expertise in pitching people to get them on podcasts and why it’s so important to have somebody else pitch you as opposed to you pitching yourself?
When you have somebody pitch you, when you have a booking agent who is representing you, it shows that you are at a certain level of success.
Number one, having somebody else pitch you is just good positioning. A lot of entrepreneurs forget that. They say, “I know I could do this pitching myself.” Of course you could, this is not rocket science. I’ll be the first to admit. It does not require a super advanced degree to be doing this. You need some persistence, some tenacity and some sales skills. Of course, you can do it yourself but it’s not worth your time. When you have somebody pitch you, when you have a booking agent who is representing you, it shows that you are at a certain level of success. If you are running a business and you’re spending time researching for shows, writing pitches, doing follow ups, that shows me that you’re not very busy in your business, which means you’re not very successful. People want to interview and be associated with people that are successful. It’s good positioning. Also, it’s hard to say what’s so great about yourself. It’s good to have a booking agent.
When I have a conversation with a new client, I say, “Tell me about yourself. Tell me about your story. What are you an expert in?” I hear things, just like you can plot taglines in people, John. You can see what makes them unique. I do that with my clients too. They’ll say something about their story. I’m like, “Oh, that’s something that a podcaster is going to be super interested in.” I can hear and know what is going to make them unique, because we book 400 interviews a month at Interview Connections. I know what pitches and what kinds of stories and guests podcasters want and which kinds of guests podcasters are like, “Okay, I’ve had enough of that already.” We bring this level of expertise to what podcasters actually want. Also, the connections too. We are already connected with thousands of podcasters that know us and trust us. When you’re doing it yourself, you don’t have all those connections.
I love what you said right there about knowing and trusting because that is what people have in the back of their head when they’re hearing any kind of pitch, a pitch to get somebody on the podcast, a pitch to fund your startup. The first one is, do I trust you? That’s a gut thing. Then it goes to the heart, which is, do I like you? Then it’s, do I know you and trust you to bring me good people?
That’s what I do in Crack the Funding Code with Judy Robinett, is we bring good people to the investors and they trust us. In this case, you are the trusted person that vets the guests. You are not going to put somebody on the show that’s not ready for that level of expertise to make sure that they are a good guests and give the audience some great takeaways and all that good stuff that makes for a great guest.
Let’s talk about the importance of getting on a podcast, regardless of the size of who’s listening. You alluded to it at the beginning there about social proof. Just like you said, if you have a booker booking you, it shows you’re successful. Getting on a podcast, what does that do for your credibility? Do you think in the world as social proof? How is it tying with social media? All that good stuff.
There’s a lot of benefits to being on a podcast. Number one, what people don’t talk about a whole lot, I just did a video on this. There’s a huge benefit for your SEO, for your search engine optimization. When you’re on a podcast, most likely you’re having a backlink back to your website. When you’re on a podcast, they’re putting your website link on their show note’s page. If you’re getting interviewed consistently, you’re continuing to get more links back to your website. That’s what’s going to bring you higher up in the search results. Regardless of how big the audience is to that podcast, you’re getting higher up in the search results.
Corey Coates and I just talked about this on my podcast, the episode that just came out today, about show notes. A lot more people prefer to read and will find your blog post to your show notes than will listen to your podcast. It’s great to have your link in the show notes and be on a podcast because it’s kind of a double whammy. You’re getting interviewed. People listening to the podcast hear you. But then you’re also in this blog post on the show notes page. My most viewed post on my blog website has 1.7000 views but only 200 downloads on the episode, on the podcast. A lot of people went through and read the content, but a small fraction of them actually wanted to hear the episode. That was a little bit of a tension.
People consume content the way they want. Some people don’t have time to read and they’d rather listen to it in the car or at the gym, and some people say, “I’d just rather scan the article for what I need from it not take the whole twenty minutes to listen.”
My point is, it’s repurposing content. You’re hitting two birds with one stone. You’re being on a podcast, but you’re also getting this content about your expertise is being written up in a blog post as well. The other thing is, a lot of the success stories and the ROI that happens with podcast interviews, it’s not because 200 people joined your email list the day your show came out. It’s because one person, two people, three people reached out to you and came to your live event or purchased your book, and then became a client. You don’t really need a huge audience to see results. You just need to be in front of the right audience.
I have a great story, John, that I would love to share, if we have a minute. Yann Ilunga hosts the podcast 360 Entrepreneur. He has some very complementary topics. He did the Podcast Success Summit. I had him on my podcast for an interview back in May. He gave me chance to plug his Success Summit and he was selling tickets for like $97. I think the idea was the Summit, you see it all free for a day and then you can pay a $100 to get the whole thing downloaded. Within 48 hours after his interview on my show went live, he sold five tickets at a $100 each. He made $500 in less than, I think it was like between 50 and 75 downloads at the time. Five people out of an audience of say 60 people. He didn’t need be to have an audience of 10,000 downloads. Because he was in front of the right audience, he had five people take action, and he made $500 for that 30 minutes he was on my show. I would say that was worth his time.
I love it. That’s a good ROI. That’s for sure. Let’s shift gears a little bit. Because you have such an expertise in virtual assistance, a lot of startups are looking for a virtual assistant on a part time basis to help them grow their business, where they can’t afford somebody full-time. What advise do you have for someone who’s an entrepreneur of when should they get a virtual assistant? How much should they pay them? What should they give them to do?
Virtual assistants, otherwise I call them Vas, are very, very helpful because there’s a lot of tasks in your business that are not worth your time, but you don’t necessarily want to take on a full time W2 employee in your business. There’s this amazing movement in this country where people are very entrepreneurial, people are starting their own businesses. A lot of people are starting virtual assistant businesses. Where they’re either doing it full-time as a full-blown business or they’re taking on clients on the side, managing social media accounts, creating graphics while being a home-based stay-at-home mom. The first thing you want to do, when you think you need a virtual assistant, you probably do. It’s like if you’re thirsty, you probably should have been drinking already.
It’s too late. Yes, you’re already dehydrated.
If you’re feeling like, “I think I’m busy. I think I need a virtual assistant. I think I need some help,” you do.
If you’re feeling like, “I think I’m busy. I think I need a virtual assistant. I think I need some help,” you do. The next thing you need to do is, before you start putting out the word, “I need a VA,” you need to know what tasks you need done. I’ll give you a quick tip, something that I did. To write down a list of everything you do takes a lot of time. In addition, you’re doing your work, you’re also are writing it down. I use the voice memo app on my phone. For two days, I said everything that I did. Literally turned on the voice memo app, checked email, dealt with this billing issue. I just did that. Then I sent that audio recording to Rev.com and they transcribed it for a dollar a minute. I probably paid $3 to transcribe it. Then, I send that to Kate, who is now my executive assistant. When we are talking, I said, “Kate, this is everything I do. Can you help me with this?” She goes, “Yes, I can take all of that off your plate.”
Depending on what you need done, you probably want to work with somebody who has experience as a virtual assistant because while you may pay a virtual assistant with experience more per hour than you would somebody who is just getting started as a freelancer, the person who’s just getting started as a freelancer, you’re going to pay a lot more in your time telling them what do to, telling them how everything works.
There’s the gold right there. Jessica just gave it to you everybody. Pay somebody what their worth. If they can do something in half an hour for twice the price versus somebody for half the price that takes two hours. You come out ahead and you’re more productive, which is the whole point, yes.
I just definitely recommend people to find a virtual assistant by way of referral, somebody that can say, “Hey, I know this person is good. I’ve work with them.” Most of my business mistakes come from hiring virtual assistants or people that weren’t quite right, because you can definitely waste time and money by bringing somebody on your team who’s not a good fit. That’s also stressful, having to deal with that. Sticking with referrals is sure fire, it’s better.
That’s one of the key things startups have to do, is create a great team, and that’s one of the key factors that investors look at when they decide which startup to fund. Who’s on the team? How well do they get it long? All that stuff. If you’re going to use that same criteria for finding a tech person or somebody for your advisory board, referrals and warm introductions are everything. You need a warm introduction to get a virtual assistant. You need a warm introduction to get in front of the right investor. It just continues and continues.
Let’s go back to you being such a catalyst connection expert. What tips do you have for people who are trying to find someone to join their advisory board, trying to figure out if this investor is the right person for their startup, or if this VA, virtual assistant, is that right person. Do you have any tips on how to measure that chemistry besides just start from a referral, that helps a lot. Is there something else that you look for in people’s characteristics?
It’s such a good question and it’s so hard too when it’s a virtual working relationship because you can’t be in the same room with them. For me, the judgment of that chemistry starts from the moment you interact with them. Whether it’s them responding to a post about you looking for somebody or if it’s you reaching out to them via Upwork. The moment you guys first start connecting, how fast do they respond to your emails? How did they write their emails? Are they professional? How did they treat you as their client? How friendly are they? Some people are super buttoned up and they don’t want to chitchat or anything. I know for me, I need somebody that’s going to be friendly because I’m super talkative. If I have somebody that only wants to do business and nothing else, it will probably be too awkward. I need somebody who’s going to be responsive. You have to know your personality and what would work well within your team dynamic.
It is like the million-dollar question, John. You have to be listening to your gut the entire time. You know that old tip, hire slow, fire fast. It really, really is true. You don’t want to make a decision too fast. Having conversations, getting on Skype, Skype video, just getting to know them. As you’re having a conversation, again, listen to your gut. Do you think this is a good fit? For a virtual assistant and somebody that you’re thinking about working with you, don’t just say, “Great, we’re working together and indefinitely.” Start with the project. Say, “Okay, I’ll have you start by doing this.” Have there be an endpoint. Then if they do a couple of projects that’s going really well, then you can say, “Great. Now, let’s commit to working together for a while.” It’s like dating before you get married. Ask them out on a date. See if it goes well, ask them out on another one, and don’t commit too soon. Then, if it doesn’t go well, stop it fast. Get rid of them because red flags rarely go away.
[Tweet “Hire slow, fire fast.”]
In dating or in business. That’s great information. We’re going to tweet that out, “Hire slow, fire fast,” and all that good stuff. Next thing I wanted to ask you is, because you’re so good at this, when someone has a startup business, one of the things investors really take a deep dive into is, “Okay, you’ve gotten a little bit of traction. You have some clients. What do you do to keep those clients happy and renewing as opposed to having to constantly find new clients to keep the revenue coming in?
Client retention is so important. I put way more focus on client retention than I do client acquisition. First of all because referrals from your happy clients are way better than cold leads. Client retention is super important. We have a whole retention strategy at Interview Connections. I have somebody on my team, Sue, she’s our director of client happiness. A huge part of her work with me is implementing a gratitude program. This is what we do, when a client signs up, they get a welcome package in the mail, by priority mail. They’re going to get something two days after they sign up in the mail. It has a tip sheet, a handwritten note card, thanking them for joining. A couple little goodies just so they have something there. Then, every few months they’re getting something else in the mail, whether it’s a free book, a business book or a t-shirt, we have Rock the Podcast t-shirts. We send brownies out from SendOutCards every few months.
Yes, I just got some.
Just stuff to keep saying, “Hey, we’re really happy that you’re working with us. Thank you so much.” We started doing these awards. I don’t know if you got one yet, John. They’re just these certificates.
Yes, I did. I did get one.
It makes people smile. I think that a lot of business owners think they need to be sending out these expensive gifts. While you do want to accurately thank your clients, a handwritten note sometimes goes a much longer way than some expensive bottle of wine sent from your assistant. Just reminding people, “Hey, we’re thinking about you. We’re really happy that you’re a client.” All of that, we do that. Another part of my retention, John, is I am a content creating machine. I really focus on creating content for my clients.
For example, one episode of my podcast that I did recently was Your Roadmap To Podcast Interview Success. I tried to e-mail that link to that podcast personally to as many of my clients as I could, really encouraging them to listen to it. I’ve actually seen my client retention increase a lot since I have been focusing my podcast episodes on topics that are helping my clients be more successful with their podcast interviews. I know when they’re more successful with their podcast interviews, they’ll stay with me longer. That’s a huge part of it.
You’re giving them media training in addition to getting them booked. It’s what it looks like to me.
Exactly. That was a huge light bulb for me over the last six months or so. People pay Interview Connections to get booked, but the only reason they’re going to stay is if it actually works for them, and there’s so much more that they need. They need media training, they need to learn about marketing, they need to know about how to work with a virtual assistant because they can’t do it all on their own. I’m doing blogs, videos, podcasts, all about that. In my intake calls now, I say this directly, “I highly encourage you to become a student of me so I can teach you how to do better.” I have not had many clients canceling. The retention has gone up since I’ve really put a focus on all that.
[Tweet “How to have a gratitude program to keep clients happy and stay with you.”]
That’s fantastic. We’re going to tweet that out, “How to have a gratitude program to keep clients happy and stay with you.” It’s really great. Do you have one little last tip you can give? If someone is fortunate enough to get to work with you and you get them on a podcast that can help them with relationships and exposure and social proof, what’s one tip you would say that makes a great guest on a podcast?
Provide value. I know that sounds super general and we hear that all the time, provide value. What does that actually mean? You really have to get in a mindset of serving first and being a giver and just focus on making that podcast the best it could be. Be a giver, be someone that’s providing value to that show. I say that because a lot of people go into podcast interviews, especially when you’re viewing it as a marketing strategy for your business, and you’re thinking a lot about like, “How is this going to grow my business? How’s this going to grow my list?” You really need to flip that switch and think about, “How am I going to help the podcast grow their audience? How am I going to make this show as valuable as I can make it?” Really focus on quality, compelling content and you will attract people to you.
[Tweet “Provide value and compelling content when you’re a guest on any show.”]
That’s great. Quality, compelling content. That’s it, people. Right there. Figure out how you can give value whenever you’re asked to be a guest on anything. Jessica, how can people follow you? How can they find out more about getting you to get them on a podcast? Or if somebody wants to start a podcast and get guests, they can get you to help them make all that happen, what’s the best way to do all that?
If you go to JessicaRhodes.biz that is my main home base on the web. It has my blog, podcast, videos. If you click on the Work With Me tab, you can learn about Interview Connections and how we get people booked on podcast.
Fantastic. It’s been wonderful having you on. Sharing your own entrepreneurial journey, how to pitch to get people to really understand why they’re the right fit. That’s the secret to getting funded as well. Thanks, Jessica.
Thanks, John.
Links Mentioned
- Interview Connections
- Judy Robinett
- Interview Connections TV
- Rhodes to Success
- The Podcast Producers
- The Parenting Rhodes
- as a guest from EOFire
- 360 Entrepreneur
- my podcast for an interview
- Yann Ilunga
- Rev.com
- Upwork
- SendOutCards
- Your Roadmap To Podcast Interview Success
- JessicaRhodes.biz
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