Profitable Relationships With Dov Gordon

Posted by John Livesay in podcast0 comments

 

When you think of leaders, you often think of the celebrity-like leader—someone charismatic and loud-spoken. They have a big fanbase and are all over social media. While they work for others, they’re just not everyone’s cup of tea. Opposite that, did you know that there is also another type of leader, the under-the-radar type? If you’re someone who’s looking to be more low-key but still get the results you want, then this episode is for you. Join host John Livesay and his very special guest, Dov Gordon, the CEO of ProfitableRelationships.com, as they talk about forging profitable relationships and what it takes to be an under-the-radar leader—someone who naturally attracts the right people because they’re genuinely interested in who you are.

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Listen to the podcast here

 

Profitable Relationships With Dov Gordon

Our guest is Dov Gordon who has created a company called Profitable Relationships. He talks about a backwards network giving you a laser focus, as well as how you can become an under-the-radar leader. Enjoy the episode.

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Our guest is Dov Gordon who helps consultants get ideal clients by becoming under–the–radar leaders in their industry. He helps them use backwards networking to reach their ideal clients consistently. A lot of experienced consultants know that the best clients come from referrals and relationships, but referrals are unpredictable and relationships take a lot of time. Instead, Dov helps you become this under-the-radar leader in your industry. It gets better because he also shows you how to leverage the relationship marketing he had been doing for free into a six-figure revenue stream. Dov, welcome to the show.

John, it’s good to be here.

I would like to ask you to take us back to your own story of origin. You can tell us where you’re living now, but if you can even come back to childhood or university days where you started learning about the importance of relationships.

I grew up in New York. I live in Israel. I’ve been here for quite a number of years. I never went to college. I never had a real job but I had spent my teenage years reading business books. At some point after getting married at 21 and realizing, “I need to figure out what I want to do when I grow up. How am I going to support this little family here?” I came across the idea of business coaching and somehow that called to me. I’ve never worked for a company. I didn’t know anything, but I knew that I had an ability. I knew that I genuinely cared and I had what I’ll call talent.

I’m going to offer a distinction because an early mentor of mine said to me, “Dov, you’ve got a lot of talent. You need to turn that to develop skills, systems and processes.” I remember it was such a shock because I had never made that distinction. I didn’t understand that at all. I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I knew I had the ability. I knew that I could coach people even though I never had a job. That’s the typical thing like, “Who are you?” I’ve got answers for that from many years of doing it. A lot of people suffer from imposter syndrome because of comments like that. I’m happy to address that.

I knew that I had a lot to offer, but I didn’t understand why I was struggling. I didn’t quite understand this whole idea. I remember when he said to me, “You need to develop skills,” I was thinking, “What kind of skills? Playing the piano is a skill. Maybe carpentry is a skill. What kind of skills do I need as a consultant? What does it even look like? What is a consulting skill?” I’d been learning a lot of different things. I never realized that they were skills or I never understood what’s a skill or a skill of asking a good question or a skill of telling a good story as you teach or skill of articulating an idea in such a way that it meets people where they are and then leads them to the next small step. The skill of leading elegant sales conversation, making a recommendation and listening. Each one of those can break down into many different, smaller skills.

What’s a process? What’s a plan? It’s a series of steps that you follow to go from here to there. I was just doing things. The first 7, 8 years that I was trying to make it as a consultant, I had some success but it was like Sisyphus pushing a boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll right back down, and then you start all over again. I had that frustration and that epiphany that my mentor gave me was one of countless. Thank God, I’m still alive. I still have my epiphanies where I like, “How come I didn’t understand that before?” That’s what happens. I’ve come to understand that’s the way life is. Life is where you keep moving forward despite the fact that you can’t see all the way there. You have to move forward imperfectly. You’ve got to listen to that inner knowing. We all have this conflict, the inner knowing, balanced with the inner doubt. Some days one is stronger and some days the other is stronger, but we all need to keep moving. It’s that forward motion that gives us the clarity that we think we need before we take the next step.

[bctt tweet=”Become an under the radar leader.” username=”John_Livesay”]

Let’s talk about the imposter syndrome since you’ve hinted at it. Who am I? That is something that can haunt you even at the highest levels unless you heal it or work on it. I remember watching Oprah being interviewed once. She said, “I can have the biggest star, CEO on my show, and you think that person needs reassurance?” I know for myself once I was speaking at a summit, there are a lot of other speakers on a two-day event. I started reading the bios of everyone else, which I don’t recommend. There’s a Harvard graduate, a New York Times bestseller and I thought, “I don’t have any of those.”

You can do such a game with your mind where I’m like, “The woman who hired me is going to get fired.” I started stressing out and I thought to myself, “Wait a minute. What do I care about when I hear a speaker? Do I care where they went to school? No. Do I care how many books they sold? No. I care about how they make me feel, think and if I learn anything. I have to trust her that she’s been doing this for several years and that she knows what she’s doing enough to say, ‘I deserve to be on this stage with everyone else.’” That’s how I talk myself out of that imposter syndrome there for a minute. I would love to hear how you help others to possibly do that.

I don’t know that I work on that directly, but when you work on yourself, that definitely improves. I remember during those first eight years, I was leading a strategy project. I started a CEO peer group for companies between $10 million and $200 million to $250 million in sales. I remember asking one of my first clients. I assume he just liked me and felt like I could probably help him with something. My fee was so low that he went along with it. I remember asking him like, “What does a million-dollar business have? How many employees do they have?” He gave me the obvious answer, which is, “It depends on what they do.” At the same time, I was comfortable enough to ask him. I wasn’t afraid to look stupid.

When I was a kid, I learned that if you’re embarrassed, you’re not going to learn. I’m very shy by nature. I’ve overcome it to some degree, but it’s still my nature. Over the years, I’ve come to care less and less about what other people think because I’ve come to realize more and more that these people that I thought are such geniuses are very often idiots. Sometimes they’re incompetent and they don’t realize it. Sometimes they’re incompetent, but they try to compensate with their strong personality, arrogance and disdain for the people that they’re supposed to be serving.

Two things are going on here. There’s a little bit of imposter syndrome and then there’s a shyness issue. One of your attributes and what makes you so likable is you’re confident without being arrogant. You are able to explain your benefits, for example, why you’d be a great guest on the show even without being pushy. If that’s something that a shy person can do, it doesn’t come “naturally” to you, then that inner confidence, that energy you put out when we were getting to know each other, comes through. I’m like, “That’s the energy I want to be with. That’s the energy I want to bring to my show.” There’s a fine line between no confidence and arrogance, especially if you tend to be someone who’s shy or might have in your past the imposter syndrome. I’m trying to give as many different things that people who are reading to go, “That’s me and how did he overcome that?” A lot of it has to do with the awareness that at the end of the day, what people are engaging with is our energy and our likeability factors.

I remember when my speaking agent called me after I was being interviewed for a speaking engagement and she said, “Congrats. They picked you over the other speakers. They liked your energy.” They literally said it that way. We think we were being hired because of our content, our book, our video or what you say in the interview. Later the person who hired me said, “You made me feel good talking to you. I figured if you’ve made me feel good interviewing you, you can make all 300 people in the audience feel good.”

I want to emphasize that as a starting point for these Profitable Relationships, which is one of the companies that you are offer and help people. I’m sure a lot of readers are saying, “John, already get to the question, what is an under-the-radar leader?” Because most people think the opposite, “I’ve got to be everywhere. I want to be on the top of everyone’s radar.” The first person they think of when they think of a sales storytelling speaker, “Bring John in.” You’re flipping that on its head, which I always love. That grabs your attention. You’re saying, “No, be an under-the-radar leader.” What is that defined as?

 

I’m not sure where people are coming in with this, but at ProfitableRelationships.com, we talk about helping consultants, experts or whoever become under-the-radar leaders in your industry, as opposed to this famous celebrity type, which is the model that we tend to see more often. I’ve found that it’s important for most of us. It’s not just the right model for most of us. I discovered that myself. You wake up in the morning and you think, “I’m good at what I do. I’ve got a lot of value to offer, but how do I get clients?” You discover that there’s a big difference between being good. People do not beat a path to your door just because you’ve got something good.

We’re all human beings. We don’t buy the product and services that are best for us. We buy the products and services that are best marketed and sold to us. We buy a good story. It doesn’t matter if the story is true or not. Not that it doesn’t matter, but in terms of our decision, we might regret it later on. It’s remarkable. We buy a story and then we convince ourselves that we buy logically. Who is it who said, “A man buys something for two reasons, the reason he tells his wife and then the real reason?” I forget where what that’s from.

This is an important foundational point to get out there. This is not the right path for most people. That celebrity, “Look at me. I’m posting 5 or 10 times a day on Instagram and Facebook.” I came to understand that from frustration, from getting up and thinking, “How do I get clients?” All the models that I saw were people who I felt like there was no way that I could be like that and still be true to myself. I’d have to be faking it. I’m not interested in getting clients because I’m pretending to be somebody who I’m not. I want clients who want to work with me because of who I genuinely am. Most people want that.

The celebrity approach, there’s nothing wrong with it. It’s totally fine for people who are naturals at that. That is a fit for their personality and their values. As long as they’re being honest and ethical, that’s what they should do, but the rest of us need to become comfortable being ourselves, which is our greatest competitive advantage. We need to become comfortable and as some would say, “Find your voice.” Another thing is that most consultants, experts or coaches are not looking to build a multi-seven-figure business and scale. That’s not what most people want.

Most people either avoided the corporate world or left it after 10 or 20 years. What they want is to be doing great work with great clients, and making a great mid to upper six-figure income, and have some time to enjoy it with their family, their friends, by themselves or whatever they happen to like. They want to feel like they’re doing good work. They have an opportunity to take the skills that they’ve honed over the years, that they’ve mastered and applied to important projects that matter. People listen and appreciate their expertise, and to be well and fairly paid for it. That’s what people want. When you take those two things together and you recognize that 85% of the people should not be on the path of the charismatic guru. They should be instead on the path of mastery.

Once you realize that, “I’m not even trying to build this multi-seven-figure firm. I don’t need to do what they’re doing. What do I need to do? What’s the value of what I sell? If a new client is worth $5,000, $50,000, $150,000, how much am I trying to bring in?” You develop a very simple model. It’s rough but it does not have to be absolute because things change, but you need something that’s clear enough to be a target to aim for, and then you build simple steps towards it. That is a path of mastery and that comes from a deeper understanding of who your ideal client is, how do you talk to them, and what are the things that get them to move.

Over the years, the idea of becoming an under-the-radar leader in your industry develops because going back several years now, I was shifting from more of a corporate focus to working with other people like me, who I realized that I finally figured a lot of this out. I won’t say all of it. I still haven’t figured all of it out. I see that there are people who are a few years behind me and they’re struggling. I seem to have this ability to suffer through certain things and then teach clearly to others in a way that saves them some aggravation. Everybody’s got to walk across their own hot coals one way or the other.

[bctt tweet=”A backwards network gives you laser focus.” username=”John_Livesay”]

That gives part of the authenticity. If you’ve experienced the pain point that you’re solving yourself, you’ve been in their shoes. That’s the truth for me as a speaker to sales organizations. Having been in corporate sales for many years, I know what it’s like to have deadlines, quotas and all kinds of challenges, internally, externally and politically. My stories and my credibility are much higher than someone who maybe just wrote a book about it. One of the things I teach is your ability to show empathy and describe a problem in such a way that people see themselves in the problem, or they’re going to feel like you’re in your head. That makes you relatable and then they’re leaning into, “If you understand my problem, you probably have a solution for it.”

I would say that this under-the-radar concept is quite revolutionary because if we all think, “I have to be the next Tony Robbins in order to be happy, successful or feel good about myself,” then that’s a very high bar to hit. If you say there are a lot of people that “aren’t famous” that is doing so well that you’ve maybe never even heard of. They’re under the radar for the majority of people, but within their specific niche, there are a few names in the industry that people go, “I know that guy.”

What I came to realize is that if you get to know or if you are known by 30, 50, 100 well-placed people across your industry, you’ll have all the clients you want. You can be as busy as you want. You don’t need to be well known by millions of people. What so many people are aiming for is they’re trying to do things that they think are going to make them internet-famous or they want to have a bestselling book. There are places for all these things. Everything has its place. I never come and say, “This doesn’t work. Do it my way.” I think that’s idiocy. Everything works and everything fails. The question is, why does it work when it works? Why does it fail when it fails? When you have that understanding, then you can devise your own simple system that works for you. That’s what everyone is looking for.

That’s what I came to realize. That was a big insight for me as I came to understand that if you have relationships with well-placed people from several dozen perhaps to maybe 100 or 150. If you want to be a successful leadership consultant, you cultivate those relationships. You can get published in whatever publication you want based on your connections. You can get to any stage that you want. You can get into any company that you want through introduction with this network that you’ve created. It doesn’t mean that anyone’s going to just introduce you for any reason. You have to have a reason.

I know people who know Tony Robbins, but I don’t have a good reason to be introduced to him. I can’t think of what I would possibly do for him. It doesn’t mean that I can’t, but if I woke up and I was thinking like, “I have something that’s good for Tony Robbins. I have people who know him. He knows them in one way or the other. Some have worked with him and some who they’ve been clients of his or whatever it might be.” Not only they’ve attended the workshop but they were higher-level clients. If you have a reason and you have a relationship, then you can get to places that other people can’t get to.

You also talk about backwards networking. The first question I have is how do you define frontwards networking? Is that the normal get an introduction to somebody, go to an event, start hobnobbing? Is that what forward networking is, the traditional way of what we think it is?

I wouldn’t call that typical. That’s typical networking.

 

What’s backwards?

Backwards is what I’m talking about. It’s where you recognize that I don’t need to know everybody. I need to be known by a relatively small number of the right people. There are a few different ways to go about it. I’ve been helping clients do what I’ve done over the years, which is to form what I now think of as an alchemy network. I’ve got two alchemy networks myself right now. One is called the JVMM, which is for more colleagues and we promote each other. If you’re in that network, feel free to say anything you want or ask me anything about it. The other is a network that’s more for consultants who are looking to grow by referral and relationship.

As a consultant, I came to recognize that generally, your best clients come from relationships, referrals, word of mouth. The problem is that referrals are unpredictable. Most people don’t know how to build a system to generate referrals consistently that works. Number two, relationships take a lot of time and you don’t know when it’s going to bear fruit, whether this relationship will lead to anything. On the other hand, it’s not a relationship if you go into it transactionally. A relationship is when two people recognize like, “Let’s get to know each other and let’s move forward in a way that we’re both better off.”

The idea of now forming a network that is comprised either of a network of your colleagues that you’re all working together, marketing to similar audiences, and you can expose each other, introduce each other to your own audiences. That would be one type of alchemy network. Another kind of alchemy network is a network comprised of your ideal clients. People who you serve at a higher level. The third type would be recommenders. For example, a client of mine is a consultant and he does projects at large companies, $500 million-plus for anywhere from $200,000 up to low-seven figures. That’s like a 90-day to multi-year. For him, a decision-maker or the CEO or managing director of a $500 million division does need to be somewhat involved in the decision to hire him because the price is rather steep, but more so because it involves multiple departments in the company. The likelihood that the managing director or CEO is going to be at least somewhat involved in the decision is very high.

I’m mixing a few things together. Let me take a step back. I suggested that he form an alchemy network comprised of recommenders, people who are 1 or 2 levels below the CEO, still in a very senior position, but much easier to reach. Because when you’re forming a network, in his case he formed a network for R&D Directors at manufacturing companies doing $500 million or more. He’s reaching out to these people cold on LinkedIn, but he’s getting a lot of them responding. I remember he told me once that within 48 to 72 hours, he had five of these senior executives from $500 million and $1 billion-plus companies book themselves on his calendar as a result of some cold messaging that we had worked on together, reaching out on LinkedIn, and a little bit back and forth. That intrigued them because he wasn’t trying to pitch them something and so on. I don’t remember exactly what we did in his case, but the idea was that we were telling them about the alchemy network and inviting them to a conversation to see if it was a fit for them.

It would be harder to get a relationship with those people if you were trying to pitch them something on the get-go is what I’m hearing. The tweet I think I like is, “Backwards networking gives you laser focus.” You’re not trying to be all things to all people, whether you’re starting a mastermind free for them or you’re trying to just get to know them by the right people who can do that. That’s the takeaway that I’m hearing. I know you started the joint venture mastermind. Originally, it didn’t cost anything and you just wanted to get the right number of people in there. Now, it has become so desirable to get in that people are willing to pay to be in it. A lot of people think, “Start something for free. That doesn’t make any sense.” Yet it does, if you’re building relationships with people that could eventually help you or hire you in some form. It’s the other takeaway.

There are different approaches. One would be you do this for free, which I did in one of my groups for the JVMM for several years, and then I realized I need to know who wants to be here. It was a very scary decision at the time to switch from free to paid, but we did and it worked out well. We’ve grown stronger and stronger ever since. I don’t charge high. It’s not like a $10,000 or $20,000 or $25,000 a year membership. It’s $1,000 to $2,000 a year. That’s what I recommend for these alchemy networks. It should be relatively easy for either your colleagues, ideal clients or recommenders to say, “Yes, I want to be a part of that.”

[bctt tweet=”If you’re embarrassed, you’re not going to learn.” username=”John_Livesay”]

It’s a little bit of a different strategy depending on how you’re going about it and who it’s for. The idea of a recommender for this client, Mike, I suggested that he go for recommenders because it would be almost impossible to get a group going for the CEOs. Their area of responsibility is broad and many people and big companies are demanding their attention. If you go a level or two lower, the R&D directors don’t have access as much. He formed a network of R&D directors with who he understands their problems. Some of them will join his network and then from those, he gets to build those relationships.

Suddenly, he finds himself with great relationships with well-placed people across major companies across the United States. He now has backdoor access to many ideal potential clients. It’s like a backdoor to your ideal client’s office. One thing we designed was a simple process where over time as he gets to know them in his network, he helps identify a relatively small project with some of the members when they’re ready. Maybe it’s a $25,000 to $50,000, 90-day program or coaching of some kind, or a little project focused on something that’s within their domain.

For people who are reading and thinking, I need to form my own little mastermind, whether I charge or not,” one of the issues that come up that you probably can help them with is, aren’t a lot of those people competitors and they’re afraid of sharing private stuff or they want to open up the kimono so to speak and share that, “These are my struggles?” I’m trying to put myself in the head frame of the readers who would go, ”Ask him this.” That’s what came up for me, which is when you’re forming a mastermind, in this case, the story you’re telling us is about R&D. I’m assuming some of them might change jobs and go to competitors, and all those same people are in the same mastermind. How do you address that?

That’s definitely a question and it’s less of an issue than most people imagine it would be. The reason is this. No one is going to be asked to share their secret recipe for the cola or whatever. Every industry has associations, events and meetings where they get up and they talk. A lot of them have benchmarking of this or that kind. There are always things that people are willing to share. There’s a line and the point is that there’s enough value.

For example, in the healthcare world with COVID, the salespeople aren’t able to get into the surgeries or go to the hospital and catch the doctors between surgeries like they did. That’s a common problem across pharmaceutical sales and medical equipment sales. Those people could certainly feel free to talk about that as a challenge that the industry is facing, and maybe give some suggestions on how they’re handling it without feeling like they’re giving away their secrets. Is that a good example?

I think that’s a good example.

Cut back to your story about how you helped them and how things took off because I do want to ask you two more quick questions about your own mastermind and how you’re onboarding people in such an elegant way.

 

Once you have a small project, then your client there feels confident. It’s like, “I’m not just bringing somebody in who I don’t know.” He’s built that relationship. It becomes a profitable relationship and that can lead to an introduction to a $200,000 or low seven-figure project. He’s only looking for 3 or 4 projects a year.

The masterminds are building trust. It’s the outcome of that.

Not only that but when I made that shift to charging for my first network and then I started a second network and started to focus all of my work with clients on helping them also build similar alchemy networks. I don’t use the term mastermind because that can mean so many different things to so many different people. It is a kind of mastermind for sure. Because it is its own little animal, I had to come up with the name, and it’s a way of creating alchemy. You have all these relationships from so many different places. When you bring them together in a way that is good for everybody, it just creates value from nothing or it creates value from things that you’re already doing. Sometimes it makes sense to do it for free, but sometimes it makes sense to charge. If you’re charging $1,000 to $2,000 a year for membership, you end up in a situation where you’ve created a $50,000, $100,000, $200,000 revenue stream from things that you’re likely doing already for free.

JVMM stands for Joint Venture, which is also known as being affiliate partners with people who have courses to promote, and then the MM stands for?

It’s Joint Venture Marketing Mastermind.

I wanted to make sure I understood what it was called. It is a marketing mastermind. Within that world, since I joined it, I’m very impressed with how you onboard people because that’s a big reason why people don’t feel like they want to join something. It’s “I’ll be lost in this. These people all know each other.” I knew you have a whole series of a few detailed personal introductions to the entire group. The thing that surprised me and impressed me the most at the same time was little steps like an email drip campaign, “Let me know when you have reached out to three people you didn’t know before you joined.” It doesn’t count if you’re reaching out to people you already know.

There are group comments and emails to the group of people asking questions, “Let me know when you’ve contributed some answers to that.” You’re thinking to yourself, “This is bite-sized. I can do this.” Yet, if I didn’t have a little bit of a roadmap from you, I would feel overwhelmed. How do I get to know a hundred and some people at once? You’re like, “Pick three and then comment.” I’m guessing there’s more to come. That is so unique and I wanted to acknowledge it, and then also ask you how you developed it.

[bctt tweet=”Everybody’s got to walk across their own hot coals one way or the other.” username=”John_Livesay”]

Thank you and I’m glad that it’s working for you. I appreciate the feedback. It’s good. How I developed it was just listening. That’s the old skill. Most of my creative ideas are just the result of listening and noticing what’s going on. I believe that when you’re forming your own network, whether it’s of colleagues, ideal clients, recommenders or whatever the network is for, they are two things that are valuable. Number one is curation and number two is conversation. The value that I’m bringing to my members, even with my potential clients, when you’re forming a network of ideal clients or recommenders, I’m positioning myself more as an authority rather than as a colleague.

It’s not a coaching program. It’s not necessarily a training program, but there are some elements where you’re bringing some of your expertise in a way that you’re not necessarily doing with colleagues. There are different reasons why people are joining. There are a lot of nuances here. What I came to realize in either case is that what matters in this type of approach more than anything else is curation and conversation. People can’t just pay and join. That’s something that matters. It’s not a very high fee, but if you’re not the right person, I don’t let you in. That’s something that makes us a little bit different from a typical membership community of one kind or another, or an association where pretty much anybody who can pay and has the right title can get in.

That is something that has made the JVMM solid and strong over the years, even when it was free. I’m not charging $25,000 a year for a membership. It’s not like I have the temptation to kill the goose that lays the golden egg by letting somebody in because that’s $25,000. That’s half a decent car or more. It depends on where you live or less. I don’t have that temptation because no one member is going to make any huge difference in my income here, but what does matter is that I am curating. I think a big part of the secret of this is the curation.

I’ve turned away somebody for JVMM who was probably worth about $100 million. Someone introduced us and he was interested. He had sold a start-up about twelve years earlier for over about close to $350 million, $330 million, I think it was. I imagine he had some investors or partners that had to get their piece of it and Uncle Sam had to get his piece of it. Let’s say he ended up with $50 million at the end. Over 10 to 12 years, you can grow that back to about $100 million. That’s what he was worth but in our conversation, he said something at the very end. He got his credit card and was about to sign up. This was all over Zoom. Suddenly, he said something and I said something, and then he pulled back. He wasn’t sure and then he emailed me afterwards. I clarified and said, “This is this and if that, then it may not be a fit.” That’s it. I’m not going to chase him.

What I look for in my members and this is especially key for people with imposter syndrome, sometimes people start to feel better about themselves when they get positive feedback or validation from people that they see as on a pedestal. I’m guilty of that to some degree as well. You have to learn to get past that. That’s a big part of making this work. When you are no longer concerned about that, and you care more about the total goal, the overall goal, then you’re able to curate your group properly. The second value that you bring with your alchemy network is conversation. Once you curate and bring together the right people, now you need to do things that make it easy for them to have conversations with each other. We’re also busy. You asked me how did I come up with this? I think of it as 365 days of onboarding. You’re not getting something every day to do because that would be too much.

I love that, curation and conversation. What a great alliteration and a way for people to start thinking of, are they doing both? They both need to be done. What’s the best way for people to reach out to you or follow you? What sites do we want to send people to?

We have a couple of short training videos on how to become an under-the-radar leader in your industry by starting an alchemy network if you like to. Some of these ideas are beyond that. We put up a link for your readers at ProfitableRelationships.com/livesay.

Thank you so much for being with us sharing your insights and making us rethink not only networking but relationships and whether we need to be above or below the radar.

Thanks for having me.

 

Important Links

• https://www.DovGordon.net/
• http://ProfitableRelationships.com/livesay
• ProfitableRelationships.com
• Better Selling Through Storytelling Method Online Course

 

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John Livesay, The Pitch Whisperer

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Tags: Alchemy Network, Backwards Networking, Customer Relations, Leadership Consulting, ProfitableRelationships, Under-The-Radar Leaders