Today’s guest on The Successful Pitch is Brad Szollose, who is the author of “Liquid Leadership”. It’s all about staying fluid when you’re a good leader following Brad’s tips. He is quite the expert on knowing why millennials don’t want to stay. He said, “It’s not enough to have flexible hours and free food and open areas to work and even telling them what their purpose.” The secret he talks about is that people withhold 40% of their core values and skills even if they feel safe in a work environment. He has really specific ways to get people to open up and do that.
The thing that’s really surprising are the three things that have triggered this generational gap between baby boomers and millennials. Here’s a hint. One, it has to do with a hit science fiction movie. Another is it has to tie in with people playing video games and making mistakes and finding out how to do things intuitively. The third one, I’m gonna leave for a surprise. Enjoy the episode.
Listen To The Episode Here
Liquid Leadership with Brad Szollose
Hi and welcome to The Successful Pitch. Today’s guest is Brad Szollose, who is the author of “Liquid Leadership”. I love nothing more than a nice alliteration. He’s an expert on the topic of generations in the work place. He co-founded K2 Design, which — get this — became the first .com agency to go public. He has all kinds of expertise on how we can talk to each other, depending on what generation we’re from, and what I’m really interested in is about creating high trust, because as you know, that’s the key foundation to getting anyone to say yes to your pitch.
Brad, welcome to the show.
John, thank you so much for having me. I’m excited. My favorite topic, yes is, the generational stuff and everybody I know is tuning in maybe because it’s about millennials, but honestly, I get a little tired of talking about millennials because I see it as a much bigger picture, much broader picture.
Well before we get into the millennials, can you take us back to your own story of origin when you would have been considered a millennial?
I was in my 30s when I started K2 Design. I heard on the news that I was a boomer, a baby boomer. I was furious. Some of you may be listening and remembering that, but back in the 90s, ’94 in around there, they started labeling everybody. This is just marketing terms, because they couldn’t figure out what the heck to do with all of us. We were all spending money differently and doing different things.
And so many of us. That was the other big thing, right? Oh my God. There’s never been so many.
Yeah. I was sitting there, my business partner and I, we had started K2 Design and for the first year we were struggling. We’re in this 9 by 12 office, and all of a sudden, he comes in after a year of struggling because we’re competing against 4,000 other design firms in New York City and we’re a traditional firm. He runs into the office at 8:30 in the morning and he goes, “We have to become an internet company.” I’m savvy and I know you were too at that time, John, and maybe more so than I because I looked at him and said, “What the hell is the internet?”
In 1994, a lot of people don’t realize, I would say 90% of the people I talked to did not know what the internet was. They thought it was email. They thought it was a gray background.
Or something the government did. That’s what I always heard about it. “Oh, it’s some kind of government secret way of communicating.”
Yeah. It was ridiculous. When I first saw it as a designer and a creative director, I thought it was a real step backwards, but I said, “Okay. Let’s see if we can sell this thing.” I gotta tell you, this goes right into The Successful Pitch, we decided to create a laptop that had a self contained demo that looked like you were on the internet, but you weren’t.
Because back then the connections were horrible, so that was very smart.
We bought a laptop, which was a new fangled device at the time. We got Macromedia Director. We made this animated piece. We even created a fake Netscape browser with the pulsing logo and the hypertext links. It fit on a 1.5 meg HD floppy. Remember those?
We would go into these offices and we’d pitch. We’d show our traditional portfolio and end with the internet. Guess what happened? Everybody’s eyes would glaze over. They had no idea what we were talking about. This went on for three months. Imagine trying to sell something for three months and people just look at you like, okay, all right, whatever, guys. We weren’t technology guys but we knew how to sell it. That’s the idea of pitching, especially when you’re in the advertising or you’re in the graphic design industry. You have to paint that picture of what they’re gonna get when they hire you, what you’re gonna do for them.
We kept going around. Most of the places that hired us, actually hired us to create those demos for their sales teams. But at one point, this gray haired older executive stood up and he said, “Hey. Could you guys create a proprietary browser that would be connected to a CD-ROM hybrid that could launch to our end report password protected section of our website? Could you guys do that?” That sounds like common phraseology today, but back then, it was like the dog spoke.
We just looked at him and we said, “Yes, we can do that.”
That’s what any good entrepreneur does. We’ll figure it out like an actor. Sure I can tap dance and walk a tightrope. Yeah.
I speak French. We can do all those things. We had MIT grads that we knew could do the programming and all that, but we were really like in the Wild West shooting from the hip. We landed that account, which was JP Morgan Chase’s CD-ROM hybrid for their 1996 annual report. Yeah. That was a $250,000 job. Then from that moment on, we started doing live events. OgilvyOne hired us because they really didn’t know as much about the internet as they pretended to be at that time. They hired us to do the Garry Kasparov Chess Challenge with Deep Blue.
We started becoming the company that did the live events. We did Bring In The Noise, Bring In The Funk, the live cast party afterwards. We hired videographers. We just took off from that moment on because well, we were featured in Advertising Age in 1995, and we were one of 10 companies in the country that could build websites and create web events.
Wow, 10 companies at the time. Talk about cutting edge, huh?
Oh, it was crazy. We didn’t even send pictures of our work, John. I happened to get corporate head shots of us, and sent those instead. Our phone rang off the hook from that moment on. We had 425% growth for five straight years.
You know what’s interesting about painting that picture, and thank you for taking us back, because I love story of origins. Agencies were pretending they knew more about the internet than they really did is what you said. So now, 10 years ago or less, agencies were pretending to know more about social media than they really do. Typical traditional ad agency, yeah, we can do your social media. They’re like, what the heck? And they’re scrambling to figure that out because the client wanted that as part of their bag.
Now, I think, it continues to evolve, and now agencies are being asked to, we want to get into virtual reality and augmented reality, so it never stops.
It never stops. No. It doesn’t. I attended a symposium last week, sponsored by CrossKnowledge and Wiley. It was about the amazing work place. Jacob Morgan was there. He just released a new book and he was giving a big talk. I tried on the virtual reality goggles.
That’s the latest.
I was freaking out, but this is the subject of my Ted Talk, which is, how are we using serious gaming technology, which virtual reality is, to teach and train and get the next generation ready, because it’s gonna happen, whether we like it or not.
Right. Well, that’s a fascinating topic in and of itself because they’re training a lot of the military, I believe, through video games, correct?
Yes. Well, your book, “Liquid Leadership”. Obviously you quote Bruce Lee about the need to stay fluid and flexible. How did you decide? It’s the name of your book, but it’s also your company.
Tell us what you do at Liquid Leadership. Who’s your ideal client there?
I like companies that are 500 employees and under. What I do is I specialize in customized workshops and training programs that get them to communicate better in a cross generational methodology, because what motivates a boomer does not motivate a millennial and is not gonna motivate generation Z which is coming in.
Oh, got it.
I’ve worked with MasterCard and Dell and Liquidnet. These are big companies but my sweet spot is really when I can take a company that has 350 employees and really help them transition into this new way of leading and managing.
One of my favorite things to do when I help people with their pitch is to say, “Okay. Who do you help and what problem are you solving for them?” So we’re very clear, because you’re so concise and compelling, that you help companies 500 and under, ideally 350, communicate across generations so that they can become better leaders. Take us on a little bit of a deeper dive, almost imagine that you’re pitching an ideal client, because I want people to see what a good pitch sounds like and hear what it sounds like. I’m so visual, I talk in terms of seeing. You can’t see. So describe to us, all right, we know who you help, but what problems are you solving when you come into a company that size?
First, I like to sit with them and create the image. I said, “How many of you are having trouble right now, where you’ve hired millennials and 20 of them have all gotten up at the end of the day and they’ve all left?” The hands go up. Then I ask, “Okay. You’re doing everything right. You have flexible hours. You have free food every afternoon that’s catered. It’s top shelf stuff. You have open areas. Everybody has access to the CEO. And you have a purpose. You’re helping out in Rwanda, let’s say. So why did they leave?” They all look at me.
Most people don’t have two out of those four, let alone all four. I’m impressed that there’s still a problem and that’s what’s so fascinating, right?
When we try to solve things from the outside in, which that would be, oh, let’s do this. Let’s design our offices this way. Let’s bring in the food. We’ll keep them happy like their our pets or animals or something, right? I’m sure you have a whole different way to keep people.
Oh, yeah. People don’t realize, this is a statistic I just heard, I’m gonna have to do a little more research on it, but they said, “Even when people are in environments where they’re not threatened, they withhold 40% of their core, what they really want to do to help the company.” That’s 40% that they’re not giving over, they’re giving back and things like this. Now, take a look at traditional environments where they can’t do such progressive management styles. So what do I recommend there? I said, “How would this environment look?” Just remember, when you do a pitch, you have to create the image in their minds, so you never say, “I created Teflon back in the 70s. Do you know how awesome I am? Wouldn’t you like to be me?” No. You flip that.
I start all my keynote speeches, all my trainings like this, I say, “Imagine for a moment, it’s the morning of your 18th birthday.” Boom. Right away, you’re back in time to your 18th birthday.
You almost have to paint that picture for them and ask the right questions near the end. That’s the clincher. I look at people like that and said, “How many of you had mean bosses?” Hands go up, especially if they’re boomers. “How many of you had bosses that truly mentored you?” Couple in the room. I said, “Do you know how lucky you are if you had mentors?” They look. I said, “Look around the room at those who did not have mentors and had mean bosses. Put your hands up again.” Boom, the hands go up. “What did you promise yourself when you got into the same position, that you were never ever going to treat employees the way you were treated. How many of you are doing that?”
Oh my God, it’s just like what we promise ourselves. I’m never gonna be like that kind of parent, right?
And here I am saying exactly what my dad or mom said to me. Clean your room, or whatever. Yeah. Okay. Got it.
What I help you with is I will help you retain the next generation longer. I will help get them engaged because I will show you the tools that each and everyone of your people managers have to have. I will help you develop your communication skills and we’ll shift out of hierarchy control and structure into support, unleashing that passion, and persuasion. You’re gonna get more out of your people just from some simple tweaks.
Oh, I love it. Well, this whole concept of persuasion is my whole sweet spot. I love studying behavior and what gets someone to say yes faster. Well, one of your areas of expertise are the three things that created this generational divide, so let’s hear what those three are.
Well, let’s go back in time to 1977.
Yeah. Teflon and the pet rock and disco. What was the number one blockbuster movie in 1977?
Oh, man. Saturday Night Live, maybe. I don’t know.
The number one blockbuster movie was Star Wars.
Now, you’re probably going, Brad, come one. What’s that have to do with anything? Well, before 1977, major motion pictures were usually detective thrillers, cop shows, romance, horror movies, things like that. Science fiction was kind of made fun of. You could see the wire usually as the ship went through space.
Star Trek kind of stuff, yeah.
Right. Yeah. Star Trek actually took it seriously for the first time and only a few movies stood out, like 2001 Space Odyssey or The Day the Earth Stood Still, but after 1977, if you add up all the top 10 blockbusters films in the last 35 years, seven to eight of them were either science fiction driven or fantasy driven. Dr. Michio Kaku, the theoretical physicist actually said this, “Star Wars initiated a paradigm shift.”
Anybody who’s a boomer knows when Star Wars came out, movies changed the way we looked at things. We had hope. We had belief. This movie interacted on our gestalt in some way, shape, or form that cannot be explained. And at the same time, it showed us a ubiquitous way of using technology in our day to day lives. Now, that’s only part of it.
Star Trek was seen in the industrialized nations only, and usually you were a geek and you were ridiculed if you liked Star Trek. I was made fun of, so I didn’t tell anybody I was a Trekker. Then, guess what? Star Wars was the first movie of its kind, science fiction driven, that was seen all over the world. If you were in Russia or Guam, you saw Star Wars. If you were in Haiti or you were in Australia, you saw Star Wars. If you were in Hawaii or Canada, you saw Star Wars. That had never happened before and anybody listening can Google international Star Wars posters. In order to pitch that first movie into these other countries, they had to fake how the plot was to be in the movie.
If you look at the Scandinavian ones, all the characters have blonde hair. If you look at the Russian poster for Star Wars, they show Darth Vader with his helmet off, and it’s done like an opera, like he’s the dark villain. If you look in Japan and China, C-3P0 is in a ninja pose. Okay.
This showed us how we’re going to live in the future. If you think about it, our brains work in pictures. Here it is, 35, 45 years later and millennials lived within the shadow of that. All they heard from their baby boomer parents was Star Wars, Star Wars, Star Wars.
And Halloween costumes, right?
You got it. When it came out again, they went to see it again. I think it was in 1989. Boom. They went to see it again. Well, what this did is, take a look. 90% of the devices in Star Wars we have today. We have pads. We have wifi networks. We have holograms. They are working on the light saber. What happened is, both Hollywood and business started to realize that science fiction was a serious genre to put money into. That launched this whole need on the screen and in the toys and the interactivity and everything else, this new era where we looked at science fiction as science fact. I can make that happen. So that’s number one.
Number two is a big one. This one is fascinating to me, but number two, the video game came into the household. Before 1977, we had to go to the arcade and pump quarters in. I had a job as a kid, so I had the money to pump into those machines. I played Pac-Man and Galaga and Phoenix and all this other stuff. But in 1977, I’ll never forget this. I was dating this girl, Robin. I went over to her house and her parents had this Atari station, had the joysticks and all this. They were playing Black Jack. I was like, “Wow, that’s kind of cool.”
We kind of make fun of those first video games, like come on Brad, 1977, those video games coming out. Well, it wasn’t those first games, but we got comfortable with them, so by the time 1984 rolled out, when Atari screwed up as a business, and suddenly Nintendo and Sega brought the video game into the home with more robust multilevel, multiplayer games. Mortal Kombat alone, in 1986 I think it was, or ’87, was a 10 billion dollar industry, the video game alone with the movies, and the dolls and all these things. It was a 10 billion dollar industry, globally.
This exposed the United States and people around the world to a global brand now. Guess what else it did? Guess what else it did? I talk about this in my Ted Talk, it changed the brains of the next generation.
Instant gratification, addiction to constantly the next level and all that stuff.
And guess what? All the toys were interactive from this moment on, so instead of going to your bedroom and being told often, you have to sit and think, now you can play video games. 1984 is when the Apple Macintosh came into the household. So now you had two computers in the household. One was visually driven and story driven and gaming driven, and the other was a business computer in your home that allowed you to reach out into the world. This opened up this expectation psychologically, behavior wise, interactive devices. Everything from millennial and even Gen X to some point, they have to have some interactivity in it.
Baby boomers, if you’re listening right now, this is why when you go home at the end of the day, all you want to do is sit with your wife and watch Dancing With the Stars. You don’t want to Tweet. You don’t want to do anything. This is my wife’s favorite show.
We’re cracking up over this, because once I unhinged and unlocked this code, I started to realize this is why the next generation loves gamification, because all it is interactivity. There’s so many things that you learn. How do you learn in a video game, John?
Oh, when you make a mistake and whether you get better and better. Yeah.
Yeah. When I was a kid, you had to read the entire box of monopoly before you could play it.
If you broke the rules, everybody flipped the board and got into fights.
Yes. Or listen to somebody read the rules out loud. That was so horrible. Yeah.
Oh, gosh, yes. Now, you learn the rules intuitively. You jump in. Everything’s peer to peer. You learn the rules intuitively. You learn the politics. You learn who can help you in the game. You look around for the awards. You push against. You test. You fight to discover what the boundaries are within the game.
Boomers were taught, if you make one mistake, your career was over. This generation has been taught, the more mistakes you make, the more you’re going to learn.
Wow, that’s really great. I’ve never heard anybody say it like that. It also makes sense why baby boomers, sometimes find technology so challenging, is because they don’t have the experience of figuring something out by intuition. The kids are not afraid to just, well, I’ll just click around until I find a drop down menu. If it’s not this one, I’ll go to the next one.
Meanwhile, the baby boomers are like, oh my God, I’ve tried. Where are the instructions on this thing? Why is this so hard?
If I handed my dad the iPhone, he’d just stare at it. But if I hand it to my nephew, who I helped raise, he just clicks, clicks and he’s got all these pages open. What it did is, this generation learned to manipulate digital information before they could read, write, and speak in some cases. It’s a part of the medulla oblongata when they go to do something.
Getting back to The Successful Pitch, guess what? When you walk in your room and you’re pitching to millennials or you’re pitching as a boomer to a tech savvy company, you better have a millennial standing to your side, because they’re not going to trust that you even know about technology if you’re my age.
Now, I’m kind of hip and cool. I can get away with it, at least I think in my mind.
Yes, of course.
That guy is crazy. You walk in. I’ve actually helped these insurance salesmen who walk in with the three piece suit on and the tie, you know, they’re clearly in their 60s. I try to explain to them, take the tie off and go in with a millennial by your side or a Gen Xer and stop talking and trying to sell, and start listening. It’s a game to them. If you do the right things, there’s no linear in this world.
I’ll continue with the video game, what you learn in the video games. Leadership is rotational as you push against and learn all the rules. Each person within your team has a skill set and you need to use that skill set in the moment when you need it. If someone on your team doesn’t have the right skills, you get rid of them. They eat their young very quickly in these team environments. Yes, everybody has to keep their skill level up. And everything in a video game is peer to peer. That means, there is no hierarchy. You just have to earn your way from level to level to level. By the way, once you storm the castle, kill the trolls, save the princess, disregard most of the information you just learned, because some of it’s going to change, most of it. The rules may change completely at the next level.
Does any of this behavior sound familiar?
Sure. If you’re used to that, then you don’t resent or you’re not afraid of change. If you don’t have that gaming experience, then it pisses you off because you’re like hey, I was taught to play by the rules and now you’re changing the rules on me. I’m out of here, right?
Right. It also explains why when people walk into a corporation, the younger generation may be bored after a couple of weeks. Hey, I want more challenges. I want to move forward, because in the video game world, you want more risk. You want more challenges. And companies don’t quite know yet how to integrate this into the day to day curriculum of the learning cycle.
Yeah, I want to ask about that, tapping this millennial talent for hyper growth so you don’t bore them. But let’s finish the third big thing. We’ve got science fiction is science fact. We’ve got that video games created a difference between people who learn intuitively versus following the rules and learn by mistakes. And the third big thing that causes divide is…
Get ready. Parenting changed. My dad was a chiropractor. He had a PhD in chiropractic medicine and a Bachelors degree in chemistry. When he heard about child centric parenting, he said, “This is a load of crap.” Okay.
Everybody jumped on the bandwagon and listened to the experts like Dr. Spock and they would sit with Mr. Rogers. I don’t want anybody to judge any of this. This is neither right nor wrong. It’s just we shifted into, the conversation used to be, wait till your father gets home. He’s gonna paddle your butt. Now, parents would look at their child, and get down really low and go, “Hey, buddy. Hey, mommy and daddy have a question for you. Do you think the two of us should get a divorce? What do you think?”
Now, you’re laughing, and boomers laugh, and then they start to get, oh, I did that. What we did is, we didn’t know we flattened the hierarchy inside the home, so now instead of mom and dad being up there, benevolent rulers and the kids could just play and not worry about life, now the child was equal, eye level to the parents. The parents began to speak to them differently and became mentors, managers of their time, drove them to karate classes, French lessons, soccer lessons, lacrosse, all these things.
Now, the kid didn’t see their parent as an authority figure to fear once in a while. They were a mentor that they could go to and talk with, interact. Parents would look at their kids and go, “Hey, don’t do what mommy and daddy did. We worked for the corporate man. You follow your passion.” Now, when they went into the school system, the same thing happened. The hierarchy was flattened and they were encouraged to call the teacher by her first name. “Hey, Becky. How’s it going?” They were also encouraged to cherry pick their curriculums.
Now, I add this sometimes, but a lot of the young people going into college now, they’re choosing what I call TV professions. Nobody knew what a CSI investigator was when I was a kid.
Oh, that’s funny.
Most professions you fell into and you went, “You know what I do for a living? You know that spring on the pen. I install that.” You fell into your profession by accident. You didn’t go to college and have a college degree based on what you wanted to do for a living. Usually, got a college degree or you went straight into a job.
As a matter of fact, when I was a kid, being a bank teller was a summer job for a teenager. You didn’t have to be trained. You didn’t have to have skills. You just had to be a straight A student, usually.
The other thing I want to ask you about is this whole thing within parenting that I hear so many people saying, “Parents really did their kids a disservice by saying, ‘You are all winners.'” There’s seventh place, eighth place trophies. The kid never has a sense of failure or not being considered a superstar everywhere, so when they go out into the work force they’re stunned that they’re not the star.
Right. I feel, I don’t want anybody to get too upset with me right now, but I feel part of the reason a lot of people are very upset with how the presidency has turned out is, they never really have lost. So, that can affect you. You don’t like the choice, but half of America chose that. I may not like it either, which I’m sitting there going, I can’t believe he said that. This is tremendous. Basically, this is what’s happened. People haven’t lost ever.
Now, I think, and I’ve talked with a lot of millennials, that they know that the trophies are BS. They’ve now reached a point where they’re like, “Look. We didn’t ask for the trophies.” And in some cases, they’re ashamed. They’re embarrassed that you gave them the trophies, because everybody got trophies so they would feel good. If you have the poor kid in class who never has the right clothing and is always mismatched and you constantly give that person an award for their crappy clothing, they can’t hide anymore. Now they’re a focus of attention. They know it’s nonsense and they’re actually angry at you for giving them this trophy, because they don’t feel good about it. Instead, you put the spotlight on something they didn’t want to talk about.
Well, let’s dive in to this, because this is a problem I hear a lot, which is these millennials get bored easily. They expect to be promoted in six months instead of three years. You have a whole thing on how to tap into their talent so they can have hyper growth. Please share that secret.
Yeah. Everything that we’ve been taught, boomers, throw it out the window, except for the stuff that works. Yes. You have to be on time. Certain things in business are never going to change. But in order to up your game, you have to up the challenge. A lot of times, what you have is an employee that has an amazing amount of skill, and you put them in an entry level position, even though they have a Masters degree, and now after three months, you may not want them to advance because it took you years to move up one notch.
What you do is you get your team to make the decision as to whether they’ve earned the right to do a lateral move within the company. Or maybe their dream job within the company is not to work in the IT sector, but to work in the pitch part of the company. This means, that as a manager, as a people manager person, you have to know a little bit more about your employees than just the surface stuff.
I’ll give you a good example. A friend of mine runs one of the best and largest web development agencies here in Long Island and in New York City and in LA. He came to me and he said, “Hey, I have an employee. We can’t figure it out, but he stands up in meetings. He’s a brilliant IT guy, but he won’t stop talking. He just goes on and on and on. He doesn’t seem to get…” They thought he was autistic because he couldn’t get facial cues that the client was bored.
Oh my gosh. Wow.
Yeah, it was bad. This young man, we’ll call him JJ. He was brilliant. I sat with him once. We were doing a project, and I said, “Can you build a dashboard overnight using this, this, and this?” He said, “Yeah, I can do that.” He had it done the next day, a highly complex dashboard. He made it from scratch. I said to them, “Take JJ out to lunch and find out what he loves to do.” He called me up the next day. He says, “He likes to write.” I said, “You’re kidding.” He goes, “No. His passion is writing.” I said, “Put him on the team to write the pitches, the RFPs when they come in.”
Well, he started writing and helping the team, and guess what? They started training him, ever so slightly, how to give a speech, to stand up, say what you gotta say, sit down, and take questions and learn facial cues. Because of that shift of moving one employee into a different zone based on their skill set, not their resume, they were able to now pitch larger projects. They started instead of winning the under million dollar pitches they were winning, they started to be able to go after four millions dollars, two million dollars, twelve million.
There’s a story.
Yeah. It’s all because they moved one employee. So you have to take the weirdo, take the one person out to coffee that you don’t understand. Just do it, because inside of them, like what I said in the beginning, 40%, they won’t give it to you.
They hold it back. It goes right into the environment if they don’t trust it. Even if they trust that it’s a safe environment, they’re still not trusting that they can be themselves or that anybody cares enough, right?
That’s really what’s going on.
Part of that child centric parenting part and the schooling, what that did is, it made them not see there are authority figures around them, so they are fearless when it comes to walking up to the CEO of a company and saying, “Hey, I’m gonna show you how to run this place.” It makes them fearless to go into a room and pitch a 20 million dollar account when they’ve got $10 in the bank.
That’s the power of millennial thinking that I think a lot of people miss out on.
Nice. Well, Brad, you’ve given us so much to think about, so many great insights, and really great take aways on what we can do to get our best out of our team.
I really love it. The book is called, “Liquid Leadership”. We’re gonna put it in the show notes. It’s a great book if people can’t engage you one on one to come in and fix their companies with your training, but they can certainly get a lot out of your book, which is really fascinating and a great read on changing the way we run things. Anybody who needs to be a leader, and I think we all are, needs to learn how to become a little more liquid.
Thank you so much for being on.
Thank you, John. I appreciate it.
- Book: “Liquid Leadership”
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