The Hockey Stick Principles with Bobby Martin
Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments
Episode Summary
Today’s guest on the Successful Pitch is Bobby Martin, the author of “The Hockey Stick Principles.” He talks about how to hit the ice running when you’re an entrepreneur with a startup. He said “create an execution plan, not a business plan.” He has a whole thing about what the blade years are, those years after your idea’s gotten a little bit of traction, but you don’t have growth yet, and he shows how to enjoy those blade years because they can take a little longer than you might want or hope. However, he also says that impatience is a virtue when it comes to showing investors traction. Enjoy the episode.
Listen To The Episode Here
The Hockey Stick Principles with Bobby Martin
Hello and welcome to The Successful Pitch. Today’s guest is Bobby Martin, who is the author of the bestselling book, “The Hockey Stick Principles: The Four Key Stages to Entrepreneurial Success,” and who doesn’t want to know about that? Bobby believes, however, that a lot of startups pivot too early, quit too early, and possibly even expect a rapid takeoff too early, and maybe even are going for funding too early, so we’re gonna ask him about that. He has started in selling First Research, which is a leader in sales intelligence for $26 million to a Fortune 500 firm. He learned firsthand the challenges and solutions about entrepreneur growth. His book has been named a bestseller by 800 CEO read bestseller, and his current adventure is the chairman and co-founder of Vertical IQ, which is a leading provider of sales research for banks. Since he spent time in banking, that makes sense, which answers the question, why is he uniquely qualified? Bobby’s also an angel investor, so we’re gonna be asking him to talk about that, and he serves on a lot of boards with some innovative startups so I can’t wait to hear more about that. Bobby, welcome to the show.
Great to be here. Thanks, John.
I am always interested in people’s story of origin, so your whole concept of, you were in banking, and then you said you know what? I’m gonna become an investor or I’m gonna start my own startup. How did you get from being in banking to where you are now?
What happened is, when I graduated from college, that was in 1993, from Appalachian State University, I had this goal of becoming CEO of a bank, but when I went and worked for a bank, I realized that I didn’t really fit that well into the culture of the bank as such because it takes a certain type of personality to rise through the ranks at an organization like that, and I found myself constantly at odds with policy. I remember my uncle, he told me, “Remember Bobby, your job is to implement policy, not create it,” and I’ll never forget that. I decided then, after about five years, I said I want to start my own company. There’s a really interesting researcher about entrepreneurs. His name’s Manfred Kets de Vries, he’s a psychologist who did a lot of fascinating work about entrepreneurs, but one of the things he noticed is that entrepreneurs oftentimes, not always, they don’t necessarily fit in to the normal mode, but they aren’t the retiring type either. So what they do is they tend to escape that particular scene and create their own world. That’s why I became an entrepreneur, my idea was First Research, which are the industry profiles for pre-call preparation. I was gonna start something, by golly. I was thinking about reselling soccer uniforms, and I had dozens of ideas.
I love it. How did you decide that you were gonna write “The Hockey Stick Principles”?
“The Hockey Stick Principles,” just like First Research, sort of morphed and evolved into the book. I had an absolute ball putting it together, but what happened is, I sold First Research in 2007 to Dun and Bradstreet, worked there for a year, and in 2008 I found myself going, okay, what’s next? I was thinking that the whole startup at First Research was a very unique experience, at least I thought it was incredibly unique, and so I documented the entire thing and wrote the story, and a lot of it at the time were concepts around bootstrapping and doing more with less, making up your own processes. It was sort of lean startup before lean startup was even known if you will, but I wrote this book and realized it was only one perspective. I decided to write other perspectives, and I went out and interviewed some fascinating successful founders. One was Doug Lebda, who started LendingTree, when banks compete you win?
Yeah.
So I picked his brain in depth about the first three years of starting LendingTree. Then I did Red Hat Software, with Bob Young. I did Ryan Allis, who started iContact. Jim Goodnight from SAS Software. So I just picked these people’s brains in depth about the first three to five years. I was like, what did you do with your idea? What did you do first? How much money did you raise? Why did you raise it? Was it wasted? And I just picked their brains like crazy, and it ended up being eight case studies of eight startups and then I had the idea to call it “The Hockey Stick Principles,” and then one thing sort of led to another and a publisher picked me up, or really an agent, and then we turned it into what “The Hockey Stick Principles” is today. It was a blast. I absolutely loved doing it.
One of the things I’m always telling everybody when you pitch is paint a picture, and your book really paints a picture. We all know what that hockey stick looks like. That’s the kind of growth that investors look for in their financial projections. Your book continues the analogy into Chapter One, Hitting the Ice. You talk about Tesla being an example of something that people predicted would be bad, but it turned out to be a success, obviously. One of the things I know you’re big on is not giving up or pivoting too early. Can you talk about Tesla in those terms?
Absolutely. There’s so many examples. “The Hockey Stick Principles,” one of the main premise of it is that the blade years, which there are four stages that you mentioned. The first is tinkering when you kinda mess around with your idea before you quit your day job or make it a significant investment. That second stage, you’re called the blade years, and the blade years, they last anywhere from three to five years. Revenues, growth, revenue is low and growth is low. Hence the blade, right? The last two stages just FYI are the growth inflection point, where you’re like wow, how did this happen? How are we all of a sudden successful, right? And then surging growth occurs after, that’s the fourth stage.
But the blade years, speaking of Tesla, are fascinating. There was a story in 60 Minutes that basically said, look, Tesla has no idea what they’re doing. They’re in way over their heads. The car manufacturing business is very complex and requires huge economies of scale. This story in 60 Minutes, that was at the time when Tesla was really struggling. What they failed to pick up on is the fact that Elon Musk and his management team weren’t trying to sell to the masses. They had carved out a niche, and that enabled them to survive and then eventually thrive. The blade years are the most important years, which is when the most important work is done. What I mean, by the way, about pivoting too early or quitting too early, is that 70 people quit. They quit after a year or two when it really takes three to four or five years of persistence. Does that make sense?
It totally makes sense. Can you share for us what you look for as an angel investor when you’re hearing a pitch?
Yeah, sure. As an angel investor, I’ve done eight different deals, I guess you could say. They’re all quite different, but most of the companies I invest in provide information to sales and marketing professionals, but some of the deals, in particular the ones I’ve done more recently, are the types of companies who aren’t necessarily in that realm. For example, I just invested in a company called Myxx, that provides technology to help grocery stores and major brands connect recipes to their customers. It’s an amazing technology by a very smart lady. To answer your question, the big thing I look for, number one, obviously, is how qualified or how excellent the founders are, and do they have the right diversity of skills to actually pull it off? That’s really major, and by the way, I should say most of the time I invest very early stage, which would be mostly pre-revenue. So Monica started Myxx, just as an example, and I noticed immediately that Monica’s smart. Monica can articulate her value proposition very well, even though she hasn’t defined clearly what that is, her visions are quite good. She also had an outstanding programmer she was working very closely with, who was very engaged, so you had sort of a complete management team, because Monica’s really good at marketing, and seemed to have a real knack for sales.
The other thing I look for when I’m listening to pitches is obviously traction, and you’ve heard about the book, Traction. But it’s all about real, concrete traction. And it doesn’t necessarily mean paying customers. It doesn’t necessarily have to mean revenue. It has to show significant advancement on the idea, where things are getting done. And one thing I noticed that really successful founders are, is they’re very impatient. One of my principles in The Hockey Stick Principles, there are 92 principles scattered throughout, and one of them is impatience is a virtue, and they’re very impatient people. They get a lot done. That’s one of the things I look for as well. I hope that helps.
Source: Pexels
[Tweet “Impatience is a virtue.”]
That’s great, yes. We’re gonna tweet that out as one of your principles. Impatience is a virtue. It’s very clever because people go what? Cause we’ve been taught the opposite. When it comes to a startup, you are impatient for proving the proof of concept, and getting some traction. One of your other areas of expertise, Bobby, is figuring out just how much money somebody should raise when they’re pre-revenue. Can you speak to that? Obviously that just leads to so many other questions, but when you’re asked for a certain amount of money, whether it’s 100,000, 200 or more pre-revenue stage, it’s expensive money, so how do you decide how much to give up and how much should you ask for? I think those are sort of tied together, aren’t they?
They really are. The other principle I have in my book, I don’t have the book in front of me, but it basically says that the value of your equity is “incalculatable,” and what I’m really saying here is that when you give away too much equity too early, you’ve kinda blown a major asset that would be very much needed, every bit of it, in the future when you’re scaling growth and when you’re really succeeding and therefore, raise as little money as possible. In other words, I believe, now every business is different. Certain businesses just have to have cash in order to survive, in particular ones that are making a real product, a tangible product if you will and have to manufacture it, carry the cost of goods sold, ship it, wait to get paid after about 90 days. You just have to have a lot of cash, and maybe you don’t have a lot of cash. But nonetheless, one of the things I think that founders should do is raise as little money as possible. I often tell people in speeches, and I make it up, but I say 90 percent of you are raising money and you probably shouldn’t be. You should be bootstrapping like I did, because I didn’t have cost structure when I started. If you can avoid spending money on things, on experiments, you absolutely should. Too many people spend money on experiments, big money on experiments when they really shouldn’t be.
Right. Let’s talk about your brother-in-law, Brad, which was in Chapter Two of how he didn’t pay himself and how much he raised.
Yeah, that’s actually a great example. Brad McCorkle, he’s a really smart guy, he’s my brother-in-law. He’s married to my sister, and he had the idea, it’s been incredibly successful, to provide a job board specifically for the eye care industry, because he realized as a salesperson, he was selling to the eye care industry, kinda pharmaceuticals, is that everybody, all the eye care clinics, were coming to him and saying hey, could you help us find qualified candidates? We need all these candidates, we can’t find them. Brad created some really nifty technology to basically start a company called Local Eye Site. But the big thing about it is, is that it was gonna cost a fair amount of money to create the technology, and he didn’t necessarily have the money sitting around, so he raised the money from investors, and I was one of them, and then he just took no salary for the longest time. For a couple of years, there was no way he could pay himself, but he scraped by. He figured it out, and now he’s thriving like crazy and scaling the hockey stick.
What are some of the mistakes that you see people make when they pitch investors, especially when it comes to the financial projections?
I think that spending too much time and energy on the financial projections is oftentimes a mistake, because quite frankly, we don’t really know what kind of revenue we’re going to get when we’re starting a new company, particularly one with a new idea, of course. There’s too much emphasis on predicting the unpredictable, and so I encourage people, what they should do is create an execution plan instead of a per se business plan. An execution plan, it’s kinda like, what do we need to get done? How are we gonna get that done? Now we do need to try as best we can to predict time and cost estimates, but one of my principles is they’re impossible to predict as well. In fact, I just filmed a video about this I’ll send to you, you can send it out to your listeners. It’s a one minute rant.
I love it, we’ll put it in the show notes.
It’s Doug Lebda from LendingTree. LendingTree’s now worth $1.5 billion. It’s a phenomenal company. You probably hear them advertised all the time, and the idea in the late to mid ’90s was a really good one, which is, why do I have to fill out multiple loan applications to apply for a mortgage? I should just fill out one and shop it around. It’s a great idea. But Doug’s a smart guy. He wrote a business plan that said it would cost $30,000 and 16 weeks to build the technology. It ended up costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, nearly a million dollars in several months. That’s not because he doesn’t know what he’s doing, Doug absolutely knows what he’s doing. It’s because it’s impossible to predict how much projects that have never been done are going to actually cost to get done correctly. I tell people to underemphasize projections and overemphasize execution. Does that make sense?
It does, in fact, we’re gonna tweet that out. Create an execution plan versus a business plan, which totally ties into what you were saying earlier about that’s a great way to show traction, isn’t it, is hitting some milestones.
Source: Pexels
[Tweet “Create an Execution plan not a Business plan.”]
Absolutely.
Yes. Now how long do you think it takes? Is it three years for a startup’s revenue to take off and grow faster, or is there anything that an investor or a startup founder should be looking for to get to that next level?
That’s a really good question, because it’s where the rubber meets the road, which is how long does it take to reach takeoff? That’s the crux of your question. Now, in my study, I studied 176 successful startups, and I tracked their revenue growth curves, and what I found is that it took on average three years for companies to reach takeoff, which is that obvious inflection, however, some only took 18 months and some took seven to eight years, many, many more years. But I didn’t see many that took off really fast, like six to 12 months. Very few did that. But I say to people, plan on at least three years of paying yourself a chump salary. You’re just not gonna make that much money for the first four years. You just gotta plan for that, and takeoff’s gonna take at least that long. That’s how people should plan.
Which industries do grow the fastest?
One of the things I did do in my research study, and by the way, you can get a copy of my research study at hockeystickprinciples.com for free, and it tracks and breaks down the revenue growth curves by industry, so it’s quite useful. I found that some of the really hot industries like email marketing software, once that idea was created, that concept, everybody rushed to market and the companies who could execute and had good management could really get it done. That industry, that sub-industry, did really well. I found that the energy companies did really well, meaning that alternative energy is getting really hot. People are starting solar panel type companies and technology for solar panel and different alternative energies. Those companies took off really fast, so it kinda just depends.
What’s your philosophy on equity crowdfunding platforms? Would you ever be open to doing some kind of round with an equity crowdfunding platform?
I haven’t done a round, per se, but I’m a big fan of crowdfunding. In fact, I actually invested, it was a year ago, in a company. I crowdfunded a company who had such a great idea, and that’s what I love about crowdfunding, is when people have a great idea and you just believe in what they’re doing, then pre-buying the product is well-deserved. You want to be an early adopter, and that’s why I love that traditional crowdfunding. The one I did, I met these Stanford students who had created a device that reminds you of flossing everyday, and you stick it on your mirror, it’s so nifty. It was a really clever tool, but you stick it on your mirror and then when you pull the floss out, it’ll stop blinking. After 24 hours or whatever your setting is, if you haven’t flossed, it’ll start blinking at you until you pull the next one down.
That’s great.
And they’re really good engineers. I was like, that’s just so good. I ended up buying like a half dozen of them. They were shipped from China recently and I think they have them and they’re being mailed out right now, but that was a year ago. I’m a big fan of that, but I haven’t actually crowdfunded when I put significant cash into a deal. I just tend to get to know the founders over a longer period of time.
And did the founders need to live near you in order for you to invest in them?
No, not necessarily, but actually all the eight deals that I’ve done, everybody is in Raleigh. Is that true? Everybody’s in the area.
That’s what research shows. Some people are geographically agnostic, but it helps to have that relationship. One of your other wonderful blogs is a startup is 10,000 little details all smooshed into one. I love that title. Let’s talk about the five tips for crushing the details. Starting with your find your Miss Carolyn ASAP.
I love that. Miss Carolyn, I started First Research, pretty early on, I met Miss Carolyn. This was a college student, and her name is Carolyn. I nickname everybody. Everybody seems to get some goofy nickname, and I started calling her Miss Carolyn for some reason, but she is a stickler for details. That’s how she’s wired. She’s really, really good at it. By adding Carolyn to our team, and to have her all over the details, we became a much more efficient company, and she did wonders for our company and kept getting promoted because of her ability to manage more and more details, and I see so many founders who, quite frankly, don’t ever mitigate that, and let’s face it, most of us don’t have the time to be leaders, salespeople, marketers, programmers, and great operation to details people. So you need that person, and it’s important to hire, not to overlook.
I love it. The other one, which I’ve seen firsthand so many times, is confusing unimportant details with “real work.” Like I’m too important and busy to be doing this, and you have a whole insight into that story of somebody complaining about being on the phone with the CRM provider as a waste of time, when you said, maybe not.
You’re absolutely right. Some founders, sometimes, they think that minutiae and details can’t be important, and they’re focused on the wrong things, when really, they could be focused on exactly what they should and I have found that successful founders are knee deep in minutiae. A lot of it is a grind, and a lot of it is not super sexy, a lot of it is who can grind the hardest, who can grind it out. Those sexy moments come later, quite frankly, and you’ve gotta manage details.
I’m a big list maker, and I know you’re a big proponent of that. I don’t know how people do it without it, whether it’s on your phone or what you’re gonna accomplish that day, any insights on what you do to stay productive and get the details handled?
One of the things I love to do is I’ve got one of those little pads, and they’re no bigger than your hand, and up at the top they kinda have the little wire, you know? The thing’s no bigger than your hand, and everything, I’m constantly writing things that I have to do there, and then when I fill up a piece of paper, of course I’ve marked stuff out when it’s done, I just rip it out and throw it away. It’s not nostalgic, it’s not sexy, it’s not anything. It’s not kept. It’s not maintained anywhere, I just use them and go down every day, I use a couple of pages. I just rip it out when it’s done and throw it away, I just keep writing things down that I gotta do. That’s how I do it. Other people have their own, they can use Franklin Covey or whatever, but you gotta manage it somehow. You can’t let things slip.
The things I’ve found is color coding in Gmail, they have colors you could, five to seven categories, like sales and marketing, product, HR, etc., and then I can find emails really quickly, and of course I’ll put them in folders when they appear to be done.
I know that you’re on the board of some of the companies that you’ve invested in. Are you also on advisory boards?
On my LinkedIn, I just put advisory board on all of them. I’m on the board of directors for some of the companies, about have of them, and then the other half I’m not. I prefer not to be on the board of directors, in fact, I was just invited to be on the board at one of the companies I’ve invested in, and I was like, oh, I don’t know if it’s necessary. I try to avoid being a director. I like for the founders to be directors, quite frankly. I’m a pretty loose investor, to tell you the truth. I’m not real formal.
Can you share your opinion on the importance of having good people on the advisory board as it relates to your valuation when you’re raising money?
I think too many founders don’t have board of advisors that should. I mention that great company that I’m so excited about, Myxx. Monica, she’s done a fabulous job of surrounding herself with really smart people who have agreed to be on her board of advisors, and what she does is she taps into their knowledge. They’re industry insiders and they love what she’s doing and they believe in her, whether or not they’re investors, totally separate. Many of them aren’t investors. I think it’s absolutely critical, cause then the investors know that you could go pick their brains about specialty areas and that’s really what you want. If you’re raising money, I think you should have a board of advisors, unless you’re one of those founders who is just really independent and hey, nothing wrong with that sometimes. For some people they want to be really independent, and it’s cool. It works for them.
I’m on some advisory boards, and just so the listeners all understand, if you’re not investing in the company, you still give people on your advisory board equity that vests over time in exchange for their connections and expertise.
Yes, yeah. Oftentimes they get stock options to them, or just issued warrants or shares or whatever. That’s true.
Well, Bobby, this has been so interesting and insightful. Thank you so much. Is there any last bit of advice you want to share from “The Hockey Stick Principles”?
You know, the last piece of advice I think is to really enjoy the blade years.
Source: Unslpash
[Tweet “Enjoy the Blade years.”]
Okay.
Too many founders enjoy it for three to six months and then it turns into a real grind. Seth Godin, the popular writer, Seth Godin, I think it was his book “The Tribe,” he basically says that every project gets to the point that it’s not fun anymore. I think that too many founders basically put themselves in a position where it’s not fun anymore, and I think they should put themselves in a position to make it fun by expecting it to be a really long ride and planning around that long ride. When I say long ride, I mean at least three years. I say enjoy the blade years, do phenomenal work and it’ll come around for you.
Great advice. Thanks again, Bobby for being on that show.
Absolutely. Thank you, John.
Links Mentioned
- Website: hockeystickprinciples.com
- Twitter: @bobbyhsp
- John Livesay Funding Strategist
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Thriving vs. Striving with JP Morgan
Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments
Episode Summary
Today’s guest on The Successful Pitch is JP Morgan and he has a whole insight into the different types of commitment we need to make to ourselves and to others to really make something happen. He really takes a deep dive into whether a commitment is a trap or a choice. Some of the other topics he talks about that I really love is creating a container of trust within your team, and finally he said, “When you pitch, don’t pitch to impress. Pitch to impact.” It’s the difference between pitching to be of service versus pitching to sell. Enjoy the episode. The interview begins in 45 seconds right after this information on how hosting a podcast can grow your business. Enjoy the episode.
Listen To The Episode Here
Thriving vs. Striving with JP Morgan
Hi, and welcome to The Successful Pitch. Today’s guest is JP Morgan. JP is a very unusual man and has a whole vision of creating a new world, one leader at a time, and he does this in a way where he challenges leaders and entrepreneurs to discover a whole new way of looking at something, and it all starts with this deep personal integrity, which I’m all about. No matter what you’re pitching, you need to have integrity in order to get people to buy from you, invest in you, what have you. He’s got a really interesting background with formal studies in physics and math. He built a property investing business from a backpack, built a media web company that serve local and global non-profits. He’s literally traveled the world and lived nomadically for three years so he has a lot of fascinating stories including one about paragliding the Swiss Alps and cycling in Scilla for thousands of miles. JP, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much, John.
I’m always interested to hear people’s story of origin. Obviously, you started in real estate and there must have been a moment when you said, “I am good at this. I like this, but I don’t want to keep doing this.” Can you take us back to when that was when you said, “I’m going to figure out a way to do something besides just real estate.”
Yeah. I think it goes back further than that like, one of the things that I’ve kind of taken on is that changes can be easy and miraculous and since, when I was graduating university, the President University was speaking and he said that the only thing constant is change. That really stuck with me and so I’ve changed industry numerous times and so that time, yeah, that was a moment and when I was in my mid 20s, I made good money. The real estate market was just flying up. I was in the northeast that time, so I’m flipping houses, doing some builds, doing some condo conversions and again, mid 20s, had a bunch of cash.
Most of my friends can hardly go out, afford to go out to dinner, so I said, “I wanted to go on to travels,” so I’m just going to take off. I packed everything up from my basement, from my car in the garage and I left. I thought I’d be gone six months, but I ended up being three years until I settled down again. During that time, I started another business, when I spent a number of years in that industry too, but then I turned the tap off on that and started something new once again and just what I do now.
Tell us about what you’re doing as the “Alchemist” which I of course read that wonderful book. This whole concept of, if we work at to finding who we are, how that affects culture is so important because I’m always telling people, when you pitch to get a customer, to get funded, to pitch anything, you’re pitching yourself, and you obviously have to define your own brand and your own culture even if it’s just you with your own company, so what do you do as an alchemist that helps people define that?
Well, working backwards from the end result, which is creating a business or getting buy in for your team or getting money for your pitch or whatever, it’s the same selling as to anything. I’m a big fan of Gandhi’s message be the change you wish to see in the world, and I’m an extreme pragmatist, so I don’t just like it as a nice phrase that makes you feel good. I’m thinking, well, how do we actually, pragmatically turn it into a doing and how can we actually do being, and so my way of thinking about is that the sum total of our both conscious and unconscious doings, what the things were intended, that is who we’d be, and if that’s the case, then how do we change all of the doings that happen intentionally and unconsciously. For me, that really comes down to how people see the world and how people see themselves. On the door to my studio in Santa Monica, I have Aramaic letters, which if you read them out, they say the words, abra cadabra, two words.
Etymologically, that means I create as I speak and so I’m a big believer that it’s through our language both internal dialogue and what we speak that actually creates our way of seeing the world and creates our way of seeing ourself and so when I sit with people, I call it alchemy because I create the container of a really strong trusting relationship and inside that strong bond of trust, I can really turn the heat up. I can challenge them. It can be uncomfortable because we have that trust and container. In alchemy, there’s three components. There’s the ingredients, the heat and the container, and if you have all three, those transformation from lead into gold so it’s kind of a metaphor for the idea, for the work, really transforming the way of seeing the world, seeing themselves through that relationship and that intensity.
Can you repeat that, JP? There’s three things with.
For alchemy yeah. Alchemy, the story of Alchemy from the Alchemist, it goes back thousands of years and there’s always been philosophers talking about Alchemy turning lead into gold but Carl Young had the insight that this is actually a psychological process and this is a metaphor. When you have a container and you put the right ingredients in the container — tincture, some lead — and then you turn up the heat, that lead will turn into gold mythologically but actually what that’s saying that if you create a container of relationship or if you’re leading an organization you create the container of trust where you’ve got 10 people and everybody trusts each other but no matter, what happens in here stays in here. No matter what you share here you won’t be judged et cetera, et cetera.
You have that strength of containment then that container can hold more energy and intensity, somebody can shout and it’s okay, somebody can cry and it’s okay. There can be emotional intensity and it’s when you have the emotional intensity and the containment so that it doesn’t leak out. You don’t start to shame for it, somebody doesn’t ran off and say something about somebody else, you don’t have to fear that. When those things happen then people transform. You’re willing to touch that, go to that place to see that thing. When I talk about the way we see our world, it’s not the surface level seeing, it’s the way we see the world unconsciously, automatically that started when we were a little kid. I’m not a Freudian psychologist where I’m going back and looking at life but at least referencing the idea of, this patterns began at some point.
There was a point where I thought that in order to be powerful I had to have a lot of money. When my dad used to take his money out and his cash when I was a little kid he’d say, “You put the hundreds on the outside so that when you have a bunch of ones, it looks like you’re rich,” and I was like, “Ooh!” That became my freaking operating system from age six or like how many feet is that boat? How many feet is that boat? We’re always comparing who’s got the bigger boat? As a little kid that was my orientation and in some ways that served me growing up but now I’m also seeing how it hasn’t served me because I’m not okay unless my boat is X feet or I’m not okay unless I have this much money so I’ve done work to undo that. That’s what I’m talking about.
Source: Unsplash
[Tweet “Create a Container of Trust.”]
I love that. We’re going to Tweet that line out, “Create a container of trust,” because especially if you’ve a small business, and you can get the people who work with you on your team to feel like they can … It’s a container of trust and they can be themselves and not be judged or tired than you’re going to have really committed loyal productive team. Then of course if you can get clients to join that same culture container of trust you really have something. One of the things I love about what you do on your website jpmorganjunior.com is very clear what you do and who it’s for and who it’s not for.
The more specific we are the … I always say that the riches are in the niches and so I’m fascinated by your niche. You’ve given a TEDx talk on your experience traveling the world and how to see that so tell us … Since we’re talking about the container of trust, let’s start with group partnerships. What does that look like and can you tell a story without having to give confidential names of what that looks like? A group partnership where there’s a container of trust?
Yeah, sure. I didn’t do groups for a long time, but I had a number of people that really wanted to work with me that couldn’t afford the investment at the time and so I decided I’ll do one and I’ll put a group together to see how it works and I capped it at six. I had also been a member of a coaching group with my own coach and I actually appreciated having a group of people that were on a similar mission and similar stage of their journey because of the energy that was created in the group. With mine, it was like I really do the same thing as I do in the one to one coaching but I do it in the group setting.
We take turns and our people turns, I’ll coach one person and I go onto the next and I go on to the next and over the course of two hours and I’m coaching one person and there’s a group of six entrepreneurs including them, they’re being served but also the five that are also on an entrepreneurial journey are being served too because that person is willing us to go deep and touch something that is probably going on for the other five people, helps them to go there too. You end up going places where you might not have had the courage to go or you might not have had the awareness to go. That’s the first piece.
Then the secondary gain is, because of the trust, which you just mentioned in the organization, you mapped that out. The people start to trust each other and then they start to serve each other and so we can set up a base camp, an online portal where everybody is supporting each other. They have calls between themselves and so it’s not just bunch of people helping each other out with business tips, the thing with my groups is just like … the leaders and entrepreneurs are from completely different industries and often at different stages, I’ve got some people that have been in business for years, some just starting off, some running a company with a team, some just a sole proprietor but it doesn’t matter because the work that I’m doing is so much more at the personal level that all of them are facing the same stuff on the inside. When we sort that out, when we straighten that out, the work they’re doing in their industry, in their business, it changes.
Let’s talk about the ingredients that are part of our business and personal life, I think a lot of people try to compartmentalize, “This is who I am at work and then my personal life is a completely different persona.” From what I have read and heard you talk about here, it sounds likes you’re about integrating the personal and business life. I’m I on the right track?
Yeah. You could integrating or you could say just not falling for the illusion, which you’ve already said that they are separate in the first place and just being myself as much as I possibly can in all arenas and letting that all shine through. And there is value in creating distinction too, like I’ve got an office where I do my work and a home where I do my home life. It wasn’t always like that. I had a virtual business for years but now just separating … Creating ways of separating them out is powerful too, creating distinction around my time. Yeah, I can meet you for coffee or you could come to my studio and we can have an in depth conversation. I think it’s important to be distinct about what you’re doing and when you’re doing it and at the same time, who I actually am, as the same person all around. Who I’m being as the same person all around. It’s just what are we doing right now?
One of the things you have here is that your job is to serve your clients not please them. Can you give us a story of someone that you had to serve and not please.
Yeah, everybody. Everybody, because my general tendency … A lot of the stuff on my website, it’s not necessarily marketing speak, it’s declarations to myself so that I remember that they’re true and so this would be one of them. It’s something that I live is true but I’ve created that and it’s because it was a edge for me. I spent my previous two businesses in industries like web media and real estate and just my life in general was being a very likable friendly person, really good at making friends, doing the thing that’s going to essentially please people and have them feel good to be around me, which worked great in real estate. You feel good to be around me, you trust me then, “Hey, then let’s go and do this business,” which is a separate thing, “I’ll sell your house for you.”
Then in web media it was like, “Oh, he’s friendly, lets work with him, right?” But in my work now what I do is that my relationship and the conversation, the dialogue is the actual service and so sometimes it becomes, you liking me in a moment or you feeling comfortable, or you feeling pleased by me in this moment is actually contradictory to what’s most going to serve you. There may be something I need to say to you, there may be a way I need to challenge you that’s not going to feel very good, that’s going to piss you off. People curse my name often, when they’re my clients. It’s understood that it’s coming in a package of love and we have that trusting relationship in the container that supports that but it doesn’t always feel good. That would be the serving side.
Now one of the things that everybody’s always looking at is, “How can I scale my business?” You did a whole video blog about that. Can you describe what you talk about there? The ax versus ads.
Yeah, I’ve seen that a number of times in my own businesses for sure also my clients have bigger businesses that I’ve had. I think for everybody, they start off sole proprietor or small business and you are just doing more stuff to make more money and doing more stuff to make more stuff happen. Then your life gets busier and busier and you try to be more productive, you’re like, “Let me more efficient with this, let me set up this thing,” but you’re really trying to do it all and you’re just going to run out of time, you fear and then it becomes a point where like, you could only grow your business if you completely radically change what you’re doing. It’s really hard to inch your way, it’s like almost a glass ceiling.
It’s hard to inch your way into scale, there comes a point where you have to just take an axe to certain things and maybe it’s you just stop doing these things completely or maybe you’re delegating certain things and hiring or may be you are just creating systems or hiring systems for it … Like you and I have talked about me potentially doing a podcast, in order for me to step into that I know it has be a step change in my business. I don’t want to just start taking on more work, I’ve been through it all before so I know the value in what you’re offering because it’s an end to end solution, otherwise it would be to me take on a podcast would just be me adding loads more time which isn’t going to be effective.
It’s not the smart way of scaling. And it happens over and over again, it’s not just people going from sole proprietorship into having team. I’ve worked with leaders that have 100 people on their organization and if you want to grow, you can’t just do more, it’s true for everybody, you have to remove stuff completely or you have create whole systems that in the beginning feel like an over-the-top cost or it feels like overdone but then it filled, it’s filled with responsibility and action. I think the important answer to this is that growth happens in step changes not in the smooth transition. If you’re feeling at your edge and you’re feeling like you’re strapped then it’s time for a step … Strapped for time then it’s time for us to have change.
Well, just to use that analogy you’re talking about, whether you’re going to host your own podcast or not, it all becomes about what you vision is, “Do I want to help more people than I’m currently helping and do I want to scale my business? Is there a huge return on my investment for hosting a podcast?” You’re creating blogs now as a way of getting your content out there to attract your right customer but if you could enhance that with a podcast once a week, targeting the right people then that might be something that works for you especially if you see other people who been able to do it in a way that scales their business then you think, “Ah, that’s for me.”
That goes back to what I said earlier, you’re so clear on who this is for and who this is not for and the same thing is true before you start a podcast or any other tool you might use to create, enhance your brand, get perceived as a journalist, as a host of a podcast. The things that have happened for me from hosting a podcast to turning that into a book, to getting on television have been revolutionary, so that’s why I’m so passionate about helping as many people who are thought leaders like yourself, take a look at that journey because it’s rocket ship ride and if you love talking to people and getting to talk to people that you would never get to talk to, then it’s a fascinating and wonderfully rewarding way to connect.
Yeah, cool.
Because this is called The Successful Pitch, one of your blogs is How to Pitch, and we’re going to Tweet this out, “Pitch to impress versus pitch to impact.” Please JP explain the difference.
Source: Unsplash
[Tweet “Don’t pitch to impress, pitch to have impact.”]
Yeah, it’s subtle and it’s about where we come from. When we think about going to pitch, embedded in that word is much meaning, so much, we could say cultural meaning expectation but I’m going out there to throw this thing with the hope that they catch it and if they catch it then I get would I want. I’m pitching this thing out there and if they catch it then I get what I want. When we say the word pitch we’re thinking, I hope. It’s almost like I hope I get what I want.
Yes, somebody might catch it, somebody might not catch it.
Yeah, and if they catch it I’m okay and if they do not catch it I’m not okay.
Mm-hmm, yes.
Yes, so you want to transform the whole concept of pitching into something that is not about pitching so that hopefully they catch it and then you’re okay. It’s pitching as a service, like servicing the ball and they help it back and if you really give them a really good pitch then they get a great hit, then they’re happy and they’re in a good place. Them hitting a home run is them being able to hit this ball, meaning they’re able to invest in you. That’s the service, that’s an offering.
It is this very subtle thing but so powerfully different because when we walk out on stage or in a room to pitch and you’re pitching as an active service then you’re thinking, how can everything I say right now add value to these people’s lives? How can everything I say right now show them that the opportunity to be involved in this organization is a gift to them. How can I show them that this is one of the greatest chances they have not so that they’ll like and give me money, so for them, for their sake. This is really just a shift from for me for them. Pitching to impress is for me, pitching to impact is for them and we come from a different place, different ideas will come off right off the bat.
Also, your confidence goes up because you’re not so worried about whether they like you or not, right?
Absolutely.
Then, they’re not going, “Oh, I’m I good enough?” All that stress goes way down and then your confidence goes up when your serving versus selling as you say, which is just fantastic. Now, another topic that’s of huge interest to everybody is this level of commitment. Whether you’re pitching again to get someone to join your team, pitching someone to become a client or invest in you, everybody wants to know, what’s your own personal commitment and do you keep your commitments? You have a really wonderful fresh take on the three types of commitment. Please tell us what those are.
Yeah, just kind of hit me because when I worked for for my clients and asked them to make commitments and call a commitment out of them, I’ve just categorized different types of commitments. Making the first category of commitment is the commitment to self, like I might say to myself while sitting in the studio, “I’m going to go to the gym tomorrow.” I’ve committed that to myself and I made a commitment and I may be my word, I may be my commitment and go to the gym tomorrow.
A step up from that is what I call the witness to commitment, so from self-commitment to witness commitment. That is where I’m at home sitting at the table and my wife is there and I say, in the presence of my wife, “Hey babe, I’m going to go to the gym in the morning.” Now, not only have I made a commitment to myself but I’ve made it in the view of somebody who has heard it and witnessed it and not only do I want to do what I said but I also want my wife to see me doing what I said to myself. That’s a witness commitment. It’s a bit more powerful because I’m not only accountable to myself, I’m accountable to what somebody sees of me.
Then the third level, which is even more powerful is what I call an entangled commitment. An entangled commitment is when my commitment, if I don’t do it, it will actually impact another person. Not just their perspective of me but the flow of their life in what’s happening, what they’re planning on. An entangled commitment would be, “Hey John, I’m going to meet you at the gym at 7:00 am tomorrow morning and we’re going to work out together.” Then not only have you witnessed me making a commitment to myself to be there but you’re entangled in my commitment such that if I’m not there you will be impacted by that directly.
There’re so many opportunities in life for us to use entangled commitment but we’re often stop at a witnessed commitment or even if we’re even brave enough to go there from a self commitment. This was really born from a video series I did some years ago which is called the DIY Lie. One of the ideas in that is that we beat ourselves up for like, “Oh, I’m really good at doing something when I’ll say I’ll do it for somebody else but I’m not as good as saying, doing something that say I’ll do for myself.” We beat ourselves up for that, when I look at it, what if that’s actually beautiful and perfect? What if it’s such that it is through our engagement and our entanglement with other human beings the we’re able to access our highest capacity to be an action and to be our word?
If that’s the case, let’s not beat ourselves up, let’s use it. Where can I make entangled commitments? With the client the other day it was like, “I want to achieve this amount of money, well what’s going to entangle you in that? How about committing to your wife that you’ll take her on holiday to Mexico or something by this date. It’s not just you making or not making it, it’s suddenly you’re entangled into somebody else’s world and they’re counting on you and then it pulls you into action and into integrity in a more powerful way.
Yeah, I love this whole thing, I’m going to Tweet this line out too, that you have which is, “Commitment is either a trap or a choice.” Of course committing to get married or committing to have a client’s back or committing to the investor you’re going to be a good steward of their money. People feel like, “Aah, I don’t want to be trapped into this,” but if you shift that distinction to, “This is my choice,” then I think it’s a huge shift in everything.
Source: Unsplash
[Tweet “Commitment is either a trap or a choice.”]
Let’s talk about some of the outcomes that you’ve been able to have by creating these creative partners in the world. I think the one that really jumps out for me is that Brick and mortar school for start-ups and entrepreneurs. Can you talk about that one?
Yeah, Escape The City is a beautiful company in London and a client and I spent a day in a canoe on a river in London just envisioning what he wanted to create there and we worked together for a number of months. It’s one of these things where you just put your possibility out and you make these bold asks and people say yes, miraculous things occur and so from nothing … Oh, actually no, he had a company going already, it was a recruitment company for many years and through our work together and him just being willing to put himself and ask for it, he was able to secure an entire floor of a huge building right near Bank Station which is totally in the center of the belly of the beast of the city of London and this whole floor was dedicated to what he called The Escape School.
In that school he has thousands of people who come through there that are bankers, lawyers, insurance people that are just looking for another way of being in another life. He had a lot of his philosophy going already and this company going already and our work was really around, how could he, can take who is and what his philosophy is and how can he bring it into these people’s lives in a way that has them be more liberated too. This often happens, in his situation it was very … Along the same lines of my work it looked like it but all the leaders that I work with, the coaching that we do often becomes part of their way of their leading in their organization.
I’m thinking of a client right now who’s running a tech company and we have conversations about who he’s being and his willingness to show up and to be self expressed and to be vulnerable and to hear people out. He has meetings with his team and he’s coaching them, he’s leading them but he’s coaching them. He’s helping them to draw this stuff up themselves so coaching for me is very much leadership as well so bringing with the work I do into an organization, people often ask me “Would you come in and work with my team?” I say, “How about I work you, then your break it with your team?”
Mm-hmm. Because once you have coached and healed yourself and are comfortable in your own skin and know what your business is then you can lead other people because you’re living it as opposed to just having somebody from the outside come in, would that be accurate?
Yeah, exactly. I tell my clients like, wear the robes of your religion and your religion is like, whatever your vision is and your culture for your organization, just be that completely. Like you said I have a niche, it’s a niche that’s submerged and my niche is I work with people at the top of whatever it is they’re doing, whether you’re a sole proprietor or they’re running a small-medium sized company. That’s who I work with so I’m not going to come work with your team because that’s your job. You’re going to grow and create your company through who you be. Also it’s a challenge back to people to see that there’s so much more impact that they can have through their being and they realize. One will ask me to come in and fix their team for them, I’m going to really challenge them to push back that there’s something that they need to change.
You’ve also worked with another client that did something in nondeveloped countries in the start up world. Am I getting that right?
Yeah, I’ve worked with a number I don’t know which you’re referring to or thinking of but years and years ago … What happened, my web media company prior to this business, it was working strictly as non-profit, pure social enterprise, most are non-profit. I found myself immersed in the world of a lot of these organizations and doing the web media noticing that they didn’t really have their language, having a bit of background in business helping them kind of put together how they speak or what they do, then I started more working in just how they’re doing what they do.
I’ve worked with a bunch of leaders of these organizations the one that’s close to my heart is Ravi Kumar — he’s just an incredible beautiful man in India who’s worked tirelessly, 13 days out of every two weeks away from his family, sleeping on a cot and just helping this village that was disseminated through industry coming in and changing their whole way of life. Then industry being pulled out because of the environmental damage it did, then there’s a quarter of a million people around this lake that have nothing and he’s helping them to rebuild and fighting for their rights and communicating with the government. I just spent two weeks with him and talked to him about communicating and got to see the work that he’s doing.
Yeah, I coached him and helped him with a few things but the truth is, me spending time with him was more impactful on me that I imagine was on him. Just to be around somebody who lives and breathes service like that, night and day was such a gift and it’s true for all the people that I work with as well. There’s always a gift that I receive from everybody, I just sat in the back of my studio before this call being photos of my clients at my desk just looking at them because this is week off with what I call social alliance week so they don’t have a coach this week. One week a month they go back to being on their own but I was just sitting and looking at them all and looking at their faces and just realizing how deep the relationship is and how much I love them and how much each of them are a gift to me. I learned something from every single one of them.
Sounds like a great two-way street that … One of my favorite lines is when we’re healed we’re not healed alone and I think that’s very true with the work that you’re doing.
I love that.
JP is there any book that you would recommend that inspired you in hustle or business development?
Yeah, there’s loads but the first one that comes to mind is one that I’m immersed right now in a year long course which is “The Way of The Superior Man.” I get it’s mostly a book for men but “The Way of The Superior Man” by David Deida, it’s a spiritual book, it’s about being an enlightened masculine we can say. I love that book. Then there’s “Self Reliance” by Emerson, it’s an essay which I’ve read, I don’t know, loads of times which I love. It’s a short essay, it’s a bit dated to some gender and race stuff, that doesn’t really apply nowadays but the essence of it is really powerful and “Tao Te Ching,” man it’s just sitting right net to me and it’s just a go to for me.
Well that’s great. Well, people can follow you on Twitter, your Twitter handle is @jpmorganjr. I’m a big follower, I love your posts, obviously your website you’ve been generous enough on your website to allow people to get some of your stories and things that you don’t share on your blog which is a great incentive to get people to engage with you over and above what they can read on your LinkedIn profile.
Yeah. It’s really just for me, the email list, like I don’t really market, I don’t have anything to sell anyway, so when people sign off my email list, I really take really personally. You’ll get a personal thank you from me and I look to really personally connect to everybody on there and just be on conversation with you as much as I can. Everyone is welcome.
Well, I can’t thank you enough for sharing your calm, you obviously did a lot of work on yourself because you have a very relaxing presence to you but it’s not attached to an outcome if that makes any sense.
It makes perfect sense. I’m really grateful for that and your graciousness and also just to say here in the podcast, not afterwards, John, I’m really grateful for your acknowledgement and the time you’ve taken to look at my work and what I do and how you’ve a point to really help people know where they can reach me and what I’m up to. I really appreciate that.
My pleasure. I love to help spread the word of people like you and yet another reason why I love hosting a podcast is I get to be a little bit of a channel to help other people get their great message out. Thanks again JP for coming on the show.
Thank you, John.
Links Mentioned
- Website: jpmorganjr.com
- Twitter: @jpmorganjr
- John Livesay Funding Strategist
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BadAss Your Brand with Pia Silva
Posted by John Livesay in podcast | 0 comments
Episode Summary
Today’s guest on The Successful Pitch is Pia Silva, who is the author of “Badass Your Brand.” She has a book that goes into great detail about how to be a badass when it comes to branding, which is all about charging a premium price and getting your ideal clients to realize why they should work with you. And she said, you know when you pitch don’t be vague. And you really need to not let the competition intimidate you, and really get people to see your value so that they are buying you as an expert, and not just your time. We go into a great detail about what a perfect pitch worksheet is. In fact, she gives the listeners a link on how to get it. So you want to be sure to listen and enjoy learning how to become a badass brand. Enjoy the episode.
Listen To The Episode Here
BadAss Your Brand with Pia Silva
Hi and welcome to The Successful Pitch. Today’s guest is Pia Silva, who is an entrepreneur, a speaker and a writer. She’s a partner at Brand Strategist, and worst of all, design, where they build “badass brands without the BS.” It’s amazing brand positioning right there. She’s a Forbes contributor, and she’s spoken to a host of entrepreneurial organizations including Goldman Sachs 10000 Small Businesses. And her company was named in the top 10 design firms led by young people that are changing the way we look at the world.
She’s got a great book coming out called Badass Your Brand, The Impatient Entrepreneur’s Guide to Turning Expertise into Profit. And we’re going to talk about that. And who isn’t impatient, right? Welcome to the show Pia.
Thank you so much for having me John. Great to be here.
Yes. I always like to go to the story of origin, which is how did you decide that you were going to create this branding for other people? Did you see a lot of problems out there and what’s your story of origin on how you came up with this badass brand?
Sure. It has been a journey. We definitely didn’t start out like this. We started actually … So my company is me and my husband and partner, and the business originally started, he was a graphic designer, he’s also an artist. So he went to school for graphic design to look at, monetize on his creativity. And he was freelancing. I’ve always kind of freelanced as a business consultant in different ways. And one day we decided, okay I’m going to build a business around you. So let’s decide we’re not working for anyone else. You’re a designer. I will manage the business. I’ll find the clients, I’ll manage, project manage, and do the money. And that way you can focus on what you do best, which is the design.
Got it. How many people would love that?
Yeah, I could’ve built the business around anything at the time. I just loved the idea of working for myself. And over the years, over the first few years, it developed into a small agency. We had two employees at one point. The branding actually was a very organic process.
First, it was two things. One, we learned about branding because I had to brand our own company in order to compete. To get clients. So out of pure need, I had to learn about branding to position myself, separate myself from the competitors. So that was one thing, and the other piece was, we kind of organically developed this process with our clients over a period of time to try to get them on board for the designs. So any designers out there, you know you show the work and then clients have feedback. And over many clients, we have built this process we actually got more and more information at the beginning. And we kind of set the stage, wrote a really clear, creative brief. And the more we did that, the easier it was to get them to agree to designs in a shorter amount of time.
And eventually we looked back we went, oh my god, we’re basically doing this whole branding business strategy, to get them to say yes to the designs, but that’s where the value is. So it was a long time evolution but when we realized it, we immediately repositioned ourselves as a branding company and realized the branding and the strategy was where the value was. We still do the design but it’s kind of like, the design is great, you’re coming to us for the high-level strategy, and then we’re going to give you awesome design as part of that.
Often times, the design can function as sort of a vacuum, right? There’s, well, we just wanted to look pretty and we don’t really even know what our strategy is. And you make sure that that’s all connected, it sounds like.
Yeah, I mean, when you’re pitching design to clients, if there’s no strategy behind it, it’s kind of at the client’s whim. At least in my experience, it’s like, oh I don’t like that color. You know, well what does that have to do it? Let’s think about your business and what you’re trying to do and what’s going to make the sales for the right customers and let’s make a decision based on that. So that’s where we kind of found … I don’t even know how you have a successful design project without understanding that part first.
So, what makes it badass? People come to you because you’ve got that brand positioning. And they say, okay, I want my brand to be badass. How do you define what badass is? Is it memorable? Is it edgy? Is it only for certain people?
Sure. I define a badass brand as having two fundamental characteristics. One, it has to be able to charge a premium price in a market and still win the business. So you have to be able to charge more than your competitors and still beat them out. And two, it has to attract your ideal clients. So what that means is … I talk about this on my homepage. I talk about how in order to be loved by some, to magnetically attract those ideal perfect clients who adore you and want to pay a premium price, you have to be okay being misunderstood, or even disliked by others.
When I think about being a badass, that’s not an easy thing to do. You have to have the guts to not necessarily be liked by everyone. So that’s really where the where the badassery comes into our branding. We work with people in all industries. We attract a lot of lawyers and financial planners actually. It’s not so much that their brand has to be edgy. It has to be badass within their industry, in relation to their competitors, and that’s always a little bit of a challenge for small businesses because I think, just inherently, people, humans, we want to be liked. So it’s a little scary to do something that some people might not like, but that’s powerful and that’s how you build a fan base and a tribe of people who can’t stop talking about you.
That’s what I want for clients. You want your excited clients and fan base to gossip about you so that they keep sending you business.
Also, it sounds like what you’re saying Pia, is who you say no to is just as important as who you say yes to as a client.
Oh, you’re singing my favorite word. If you can’t say no to the wrong clients, that’s not badass either. I’m a big proponent of saying no to everyone who is not a perfect fit for what you do.
Source: Pexels
[Tweet “Only work with your ideal clients.”]
So if someone wants to get out of the rat race and stop trying to hunt for clients, and get these high-paying clients that you’re talking about, what’s your advice on how to do that?
Well, the first thing is to narrow your business in some capacity. I don’t necessarily think you have to just narrow your target market. I think there’s actually a bunch of different ways that you can narrow your focus and your message. But you do need to focus your message on something because if it’s not an idea that is immediately noticeable, stands out from the crowd, immediately memorable, then you won’t empower people that you come into contact with to share it.
For example, it might be a combination of your target market and potentially your personality. What I like to say about personality and that’s something that a lot of people think of as your brand. It’s like the personality of your company. For it to help you attract these clients, it has to be contrary to the prevailing personality in your industry.
So let me give you a quick example. We positioned a financial firm who was for millennials, and we renamed them Stash Wealth. Their tagline on their newsletter is: Financial Cliff Notes. Get your financial shit together. We don’t always curse by the way, but it happened to be appropriate here.
That is a demonstration of a very cool, edgy, fun brand, and it’s very different from the financial industry. However that brand, if it were in the ad agency world, it wouldn’t necessarily be as different because a lot of ad agencies have this like hip, cool, young vibe. So it is very important how it’s relative to the competitors in your industry.
Well you have a great story and I love stories. About how you went from $40,000 in debt to $500,000 in sales in just 12 months without paying for advertising. I’m sure people would love to hear that story.
Sure. Well, so three years into our business, almost exactly three years after I said, “Steve I’m going to manage your business.” We had a studio in Brooklyn, we had to employees. We had built this small agency much like the agencies we saw out in the world. We were copying what they were doing cause it seemed to be working, and we raised our prices pretty quickly in that last, in that third year, because we were working our butts off and we were barely staying afloat, so at one point I doubled our prices from $16,000 to $32,000 a project. What I didn’t know then that I know now, is that it’s much more competitive at that price point, and the sales process is a lot longer.
So both of those things … We came in second on a lot of pitches, and three years after we started our business, we were in $40,000 of debt. So that was credit card debt. I basically spent all the cash I had on the employee payroll obviously. We weren’t paying ourselves, and that was our credit limit at the time, so that’s kind of why that was such an important number. We probably would have gone a little bit farther had we had more credit.
So we had to make a decision at that point, and I certainly was really distraught, feeling like failure. You know, feeling like we’re going to have to close up shop. Am I going to have to get a job? And Steve actually said to me, he goes … Well first, he said we need to let these employees go. They’re very expensive. And that felt like failure to me too. It felt like we were closing in – we didn’t make it. But what he said was, that doesn’t mean we’re going backwards. Maybe this is the next step in our evolution. We’re very good at what we do. Our clients are happy. There’s something not working, so we need to take a step back and look at what’s working and what’s not working.
Over the next couple months, we put ourselves through our own branding process. One of the key questions I always ask clients, that we asked ourselves was, what is our favorite thing about what we do? What we found was that we love the work. We love the design work. Working with clients. We didn’t like the long drawn-out projects. We didn’t like how after we did all this up-front work and show them all this work that we were very proud of, that committee, that design-by-committee, would water it down, and these detailed feedback back and forth, and these projects that would last 6 or 12 months. Months longer than they were supposed to because of all the back and forth. Just stuff that really sucks the energy and profitability out of projects.
So then we said, okay well, what’s the most profitable thing we do? And it turned out that we actually had a process and a product that we had built a year earlier, that we both loved and was much more profitable. And so essentially, the year before, because we raised our price so much, a business coach of mine he said, okay Pia, you’re really pricing yourself out of all these people in your network. These small businesses who don’t have $30,000 to spend. So he said just come up with something you could offer them because they keep calling you, and you keep saying oh no sorry we’re too expensive for you. I was just turning people away. It was like no, no, no, we’re an agency now.
So we came up with this thing called the Brand Up. And it was a one-day intensive where a client came in for $3,000, and Steve and I would make everything we could for them. And that was it. We did it a few times over the year. I didn’t advertise it because I was really going for the big fish. But at this moment when we were in debt, we realized that those were really fun, and they were much more profitable. Because $3,000 for a day, really it’s a lower price point but it far eclipses the amount of money we would make over a $30,000 project overtime. Right? I mean we spend more than 10 days on a $30,000 project.
So we doubled down on this process called the Brand Up and we only started selling that. So we repositioned our company basically overnight. We built a one and two-day Brand Up. And I called up all the outstanding proposals that I had out. You know how this goes when you call a proposal, at the client and say hey, just checking in on the proposal. You know that dreaded call?
So I made that call to a bunch of clients and they said to me, oh yeah I’m so sorry I haven’t gotten back to you. You know excuses, excuses. And I said, no I’m calling you to tell you that that proposal is no longer valid. We’re no longer doing that. However I can do your project in two days for a fraction of the price. I closed four clients just from that.
Sure. Well the big takeaway here I think is, step back, don’t throw in the towel. Figure out as they always say, a way to pivot, right? And say, okay if this isn’t working, what is it we really love? What makes us unique? What are the objections? If it’s price, is there a way to reformat it so we’re still premium price, but not having to put so much work in? And this concept of Brand Up is really great. It instantly says what it does. And you’re only asking people to give you a day and at the end of that day, you’re giving them all these amazing takeaways. That’s a good use of their time as an investment, as well as a reasonable price, that they can’t say, I get that I’m getting probably five times or more that in value from doing this.
So that’s really great information for people that say, you know if your pitch isn’t working, whether it’s your pitch to get funded, your pitch to get a client, or even to get hired. You need to just step back and literally what you did, it is rebrand yourself. Is that an accurate summary of what you just said?
Yeah, absolutely, and it really informed the pitch. I mean when I say badass brands without the BS, but no BS is the six months of feedback. To me, I’m cutting out the BS for you as much as for me. We’re still delivering high-quality deliverables but in a much shorter amount of time that I’ve actually found works really well for clients too who don’t have the time to dedicate.
Yeah, it’s like we don’t have a month to debate what color this is going to be. We’ve got to make a decision now because we have so many other things to cover, and it’s already noon, right?
And you shouldn’t. You shouldn’t, especially as a small business owner. I think small business owners sometimes use that as an excuse, not intentionally but like, oh let’s talk about this logo for a long time. It’s like, no, no, let’s get this done and get started selling. I mean that’s why my book says impatient entrepreneur. I am the impatient entrepreneur. I don’t want to do this for six months. I want you to start making sales tomorrow.
Right. Well talk about your book. How did you come up with the concept to do a book? What’s your intent on doing that?
Thanks for asking that. I actually started writing the book because I wanted to learn … I wanted to see if I could write a book, and I wanted to learn the process of self publishing. I have a lot of clients. Again, my focus is one to three person service businesses, and a lot of those people, one of their best marketing strategies is to position themselves as experts and thought leaders and publishing a book is a really great way to do that.
So you know, I’m always looking to do things that will increase my value to my clients, and knowing how to self publish a book, just understanding what it takes and understanding all the marketing, I thought would be a valuable skill to have. Little did I know in the process that there would be all these amazing other things that would come up. Like having a book gives you a really great reason to come on podcasts, and I’m a Forbes contributor. I mean, I pushed a little more that cause I knew I had a book coming out. So it kind of sparked a lot of energy in me and that’s exciting.
I always say to people that within the word authority, is the word author.
Oh interesting.
So whatever you’re the author of, you’re the authority of. And if you want to be perceived as an authority, expert/thought leader, to the media and to your clients, that’s a really great way to do it.
So let’s jump in early in the interview because you’ve been so generous in offering the listeners a special treat. And I don’t know about you, but I don’t always like to wait for the end of the meal for my dessert. So if you don’t mind, let’s jump to what the treat is, that you’re going to give the listeners of The Successful Pitch.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, when you so graciously invited me, I thought about something I could give your listeners specifically, and I wanted to share with you my perfect pitch worksheet. So I made a landing page for you guys. It’s http://badassyourbrand.com/pitch. Keep it simple. And if you go there, you can download both the first chapter of my book, which goes a little more into detail about our pivot and how we repositioned our business, and you will also get the Perfect Pitch worksheet to build your badass pitch.
I love it. So that’s http://badassyourbrand.com/pitch. We will put that in the show notes, but I just wanted to make sure anyone just listening, that they will get that URL. That’s really really generous of you.
So what will we find in the Perfect Pitch worksheet. You don’t work have to give us the whole thing, but just tease us a little bit about what’s in the Perfect Pitch worksheet that’s not in the book?
There is not a worksheet in the book specifically. Although there’s an accompanying workbook. The Perfect Pitch worksheet is really trying to distill how you’re going to say it in a 30-second elevator pitch, and what to get rid of. So I find that people tend to focus on the wrong pieces, and at the same time, I hear a lot of people giving pitches where they’re not really clear.
So in an attempt to not be the same, they end up being vague. So let’s do the marriage of the two. Let’s give it something interesting but also be really clear so they’re not just left wondering, what the hell did they do?
I couldn’t agree more. I always tell my clients, the confused mind always says no, and being vague or too complex is confusing. People are like, you’re making me work too hard to understand whether this is for me or not. Or I’m on to the next thing. Or the next pitch. Or you’ve lost me and I’m too embarrassed to say I don’t understand. If you don’t do that and you are clear and concise when you pitch, then people are much more likely to want to know more. Which in my view, is the whole point of a good pitch.
Source: Pexels
[Tweet “Don’t be vague when you pitch.”]
Couldn’t agree more.
What do you think are the three most important pieces of advice that you have for people who start their own business?
So number one is, although it’s valuable to look at the competition, and you want to know what’s going on in the market, don’t take it too seriously. I think it’s more valuable, and again I focus on small service businesses, so I am an authority on small service businesses. These ideas can apply, but I don’t apply them as fervently to different kinds of businesses.
Just so it’s clear, so we’re being 100% clear, how do you define a small service business? I think I know, but I’d love to hear your definition.
Well, we only work with one to three person service businesses, and there’s a reason for that. We’re doing intensive model work, and more than three opinions starts to get muddy.
So what’s a service business? Give us an example of one of your clients.
Yeah, so any sort of consultant, architect, general contractor, photographer. Anyone who is selling their expertise. So someone that’s an expert at something, and they’re selling essentially their time. Now I say that with a caveat. I don’t believe in charging money, time and money. Trading time for money. I believe in selling based on value. However, service businesses are delivering some of their time in where they deliver their value.
Sure, right. Okay, got it. That’s very clear. I love it. Especially, so now we know, like oh, if you’re an architect, if you’re a consultant, you need Pia. Right? Cause you got so specific for us in what a service business is, as opposed to, oh I have a coffee shop. Is that a service business? Do I need you?
Yes, great point. And the other thing for me, is that’s why I define badass brands as charging a premium price. A lot of the strategies that I teach and who I like to work with, they have to want to charge a premium price. I don’t play the pricing game. I don’t think anyone should. Building a business is hard enough, why would you also build a business that’s competing on price? Might as well position yourselves in a way where you can charge a premium price and you can grow that value exponentially.
Got it. So your first piece of advice is, don’t let the competition sway you.
Sway you too much. Instead I think it’s really valuable and important to look inside yourself and what your real core competency is. What you absolutely love to do. And build a business around that. Because not only will that be more enjoyable, and you’ll have more enthusiasm for it, but we are unique. Everybody can have their own unique spin on something, and you can’t find that looking at the competition.
Source: Pexels
[Tweet “Don’t be intimidated by competition.”]
Got it, okay.
Was that a long one?
No, that’s good.
I’ve got two more.
Sure.
Okay, number two would be, I kind of said this a little bit, selling based on value, not on time. Positioning yourself as an expert versus a service provider. So when I look at service businesses, you are a service provider, but there’s a way to charge and position yourself as an expert where people are coming to you because of what you know as opposed to coming to you because you’re the hands to execute.
There’s a bunch of different ways to do this, but two of them is the way that you manage the process. So taking control of a project and asking bigger questions first. Not what do you want me to do? But what are you trying to accomplish? And coming from that positioning, which is more of an expert positioning.
And two, is to sell based on value, not on time. So not even quantifying time for a client and giving them an ability to dissect an hourly rate. It shouldn’t really matter how much time you spend. So that would be two.
Okay.
Three is to have the badass guts to say no to clients that are not your perfect ideal clients, and by ideal clients, I mean both clients that you want to work with and you would love to engage with. And also clients that are positioned to really get the most out of what you do. So, I think it’s really important for your own brand’s reputation to pick clients as much as they pick you, based on whether or not you can really do your best work for them.
I love that because I’m always counseling people who are pitching for getting their startup funded. You need to be coachable, and if you’re pitching or interviewing potential people to help you with your brand, like someone would be talking to you, you need to come across as someone who’s coachable. And if it’s going to be antagonistic from the get-go, just during the interview process, the negotiations don’t have to be that way.
And it sets the tone for how you’re going to engage and start questioning every little line item, you’re going to drive yourself crazy. So I always talk about, here’s who this is for, and here’s who this is not for. And if this fits you, I do my best work with my ideal clients. I’m helping people crafting really great pitch, and helping them get more clients, or whatever the objective is. And the same thing, sounds like that’s what you do. It’s like, here’s who this is for. If you need help with your brand, and getting the design up and running in a short amount of time, and you work in the service business like a consultant or an architect, then this is who this is for.
If you’re not charging a premium price, and you want to argue about the color of something for two months, this is not for you.
Yeah, exactly, and what that means is, every client we work with is really excited. And they’re amped and ready to get the best out of what we do. So it’s a win-win.
I love it. Well you are all over social media. Your Twitter handle is @PiaLovesYourBiz. So we definitely want to encourage people to tweet you and follow you on all the different social medias. Is there any one last piece of advice you’d like to leave our listeners? Either about something from your book, or just something that you’ve learned along the way yourself.
Yeah, I just want to … I love to tell fellow entrepreneurs, and this is something that I am constantly reminding myself to do, which is, be committed. Be super focused on the thing that you’re doing, and what you love to do. Also, keep reminding yourself to take a step back and survey the landscape because every time I have had a new idea, it’s come when I take a little bit of space and then it’s right in front of my face. The Brand Up and building that was an obvious one, but I feel like I had so many moments like that, and when I noticed them, I think, oh my gosh how was I not … I was just so myopic in my thinking up until now, I wasn’t able to see that. So, just always remember to go back and forth from the focused, to the expansive look.
It’s great because it’s almost a paradox, isn’t it? What most people do, is they try to do both in one day. Big picture and focused. Big picture and focused. What about these 20 ideas, and I’ve lost all my focus. So you’re like, schedule some time to just focus, and then schedule some time to take a break and open your mind up to what else you could be doing. But not concurrently, so you’re not multitasking in your head.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, I know I can get married to ideas when I’m working on them. And then get scared if maybe they’re not working well. But as Steve is always there to remind me too, it’s like, this could be something else completely in the future, you know? It’s not that I want to be changing all the time, but there’s so many possibilities and that’s really exciting. And I think that’s what entrepreneurism is all about.
Thanks Pia, you’ve been a great guest. I love your own branding. Badass your brand, that’s the name of the site, that’s the name of the book. Good branding there.
Thank you.
Be sure to pick it up. It’s easy to remember and it solves a big problem that a lot of people have, which is don’t be vague. Anybody … Get very clear and concise. Thanks again Pia.
Thanks so much for having me John. This was great.
Links Mentioned
- Website: http://badassyourbrand.com/pitch
- Twitter: @PiaLovesYourBiz
- John Livesay Funding Strategist
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