Wisdom At Work With Chip Conley

Posted by John Livesay in podcast0 comments

 

When you were young, you had kindergarten. When you were a teenager, you had high school. When you were a young adult, you had college. What happens when you reach midlife? Research says that midlife starts at 35 and ends at 75. Does learning stop at 35? Is that why people call it a midlife crisis? Join your host, John Livesay, and his guest, Chip Conley, in this discussion about why being middle-aged is just bad branding. Chip is the Founder of Modern Elder Academy and is the best-selling author of Wisdom at Work. Learn all about the Modern Elder Academy and why Chip created it to fight off the negative stigma of midlife. Also, learn the difference between retirement and regeneration, diversity, and so much more.

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Listen to the podcast here

 

Wisdom At Work With Chip Conley

Chip Conley, the Bestselling Author of Wisdom at Work and the Founder of the Modern Elder Academy. He said middle age has bad branding. It’s not just a crisis. We talked about the difference between retirement and regeneration. When you are as curious as you are wise, you are a modern elder. Enjoy the episode. On this episode’s guest is Chip Conley who is a Rebel Hospitality Entrepreneur and New York Times Bestselling Author. He disrupted his favorite industry twice. At 26 years old, he founded Joie de Vivre Hospitality, which transformed an inner-city motel into the second largest boutique hotel brand in America. He sold that after running it as CEO for 24 years.

The young founders of Airbnb asked him to help transform their promising startup into the world’s leading hospitality brand. He served as Airbnb’s head of global hospitality and strategy for four years and now acts as the company’s strategic advisor for hospitality and leadership. His five books have made him a leading authority at the intersection of psychology and business. He was awarded the Most Innovative CEO by the San Francisco Business Times and is the recipient of the hospitalities highest honor, the Pioneer Award. He holds an MBA from Stanford and is also, where we are going to get into, the Founder of something that I’m extremely impressed with called MEA, the Modern Elder Academy.

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Chip, welcome to the show.

John, it’s great to be with you. Thank you.

You have so many words of wisdom. My favorite book of yours, Wisdom at Work is just something I have read multiple times. I usually don’t have the time to read a book more than once but it’s become a resource for me. Before we get into how you’ve got to be so dang smart and wise, let’s go back to your own story of origin. Tell us, childhood or your days at Stanford, wherever you want to start.

I grew up in Southern California in Long Beach. I wanted to be a writer and an entrepreneur and my dad said, “Entrepreneur, yes. Writer, no. Writers are poor and psychotic.” Ultimately, I became an entrepreneur and a writer. I was a rebel, of course, but I went to the College of Stanford. I went to business school at Stanford. I’ve got an MBA. About 2.5 years, out of Stanford Business School at age 26. I decided to call my new boutique hotel company Joie de Vivre. It is not easy to say, spell or even know what it means in America. French for Joie de Vivre. That was our mission. Our mission was to create joy. I figured, “Why not have the name of the company and the mission of the company being the same.”

I started with a broken-down motel in the Tenderloin in San Francisco and grew that into 52 boutique hotels around the State of California over the next 24 years as the Founder and CEO. It became the second-largest boutique hotel here in the US. I loved it until I hated it. There was nothing in between for 22 years. What happened was, I was starting to love the writing more. The third book I wrote was called PEAK: How Great Companies Get Their Mojo from Maslow. It became a bestseller. I started giving speeches on it, and then the Great Recession came along in 2008. I didn’t want to do this anymore. I didn’t want to be founder and CEO anymore but I didn’t set up the company to have a succession plan.

The Great Recession started to wipe us out and I had a bunch of other stuff going on. I had a difficult couple of years around 47, 48, 49 years old. Finally, I’ve got to the places that I’ve got to sell this company. I did it during the recession. What’s fascinating is it allowed me to say, “I now am without a resume, without a job and identity.” It was weird. I felt naked. That’s the time that the three founders of Airbnb came along. A couple of years ago, I joined them and it was a small tech company. Nobody in the company had a hospitality or travel background.

[bctt tweet=”DQ, Digital Intelligence, also requires EQ.” username=”John_Livesay”]

That was a fascinating journey, helping them guide the rocket ship in a 70-hour week. I only did it for four years. While I was there that I came to realize, they were calling me the modern elder behind my back. I wasn’t sure if I liked that. It sounds like modern elder lee. I was mentoring Brian, the CEO and Joe is the Cofounder. He said, “Modern elder’s as curious as they are wise.” That’s what led me to where I am now. When I left my full-time role and became a strategic advisor of the company, it gave me the space to write Wisdom at Work: The Making of a Modern Elder. While I was writing that down here in Baja, where I had a home on the beach, I had a Baja a-ha and epiphany. That’s when I decided, “We’ve got to create MEA.” That’s a quick summation.

There are a couple of things that stood out for me. “I loved it until I hated it.” Twenty-two years, it was joyful. I can’t help but think about personal relationships, marriages, partnerships, or any relationship with something. Not everything has to last forever for it to be a success. We could be in those relationships with ourselves and go, “It’s time for something new.” It doesn’t mean that it wasn’t great or that I’m a failure at this just because I don’t want to do it anymore.

We all evolved and there are things in life that we think will be permanent but nothing is permanent, including ourselves. We die at some point. Your reputation could live on. There’s a famous Developmental Psychologist named Erikson. He says, “I am what survives me.” I like that. It speaks to legacy. Your legacy and your reputation can live on. There are things in life that have to have an end. I didn’t think I would have an end with the company I started but I had a flatline experience. I died multiple times after having an allergic reaction to an antibiotic that I was on. I died on stage, even worse, it was right after giving a speech in St Louis. It was that moment at age 47, almost 48, where I just said, “Something is not working here.” There were a lot of things that are not working. It allowed me to step back and say, “This is the wake-up call for this hotelier.”

I have a phrase that I would love your opinion on, which is, “If not now, when?”

What that phrase does is it says stop procrastinating and stop optimizing for some perfect time because often, the perfect time is now.

The concept of a Modern Elder is as curious as they are wise, I have found that people I know who are fully alive in their ’80s, friend of mine turned 90, she has always been someone extremely curious. That doesn’t stop just because we get older. That need to keep learning and stay on top of what’s going on and have an opinion about something makes me want to dive into what you are doing at the Modern Elder Academy, which is creating, first of all, a safe space for people to be vulnerable. Would you say that’s accurate?

 

That is very accurate. This is particularly important for men. Let me give you the background on what it is the Modern Elder Academy and then we can dive into what we do there. While I had this big Baja a-ha reading on the beach, what came to me was the following, why do we not have any schools or tools, rites of passage or rituals for people in midlife? Midlife has a bad brand because we slapped on midlife crisis. That’s the term that everybody associates with midlife.

Sociologists say midlife now extends from 35 to 75. It’s starting earlier than in the past. The past was 45 to 65. Why is it 35 to 75? Why is it a marathon? It’s partly because in certain industries if you are a software engineer, an advertising executive, a model, a professional athlete, there are a lot of industries where people feel over the hill at age 35. Similarly, there are a lot of people who are not going to retire at 65. They are going to live longer. They are going to work longer. If midlife is 40 years long, what do we have to help people through that period? That’s why we created the world’s first midlife wisdom school, the Modern Elder Academy down here in Baja.

Our program is dedicated to what we call long-life learning. We like lifelong learning but long-life learning is a different thing than lifelong. Lifelong learning, says, “At age 30 or 60, you are learning something new.” It doesn’t suggest that maybe what you want to learn and how you learn it is different at age 60 than at age 30. Long-life learning is based on the premise that as we are living longer, we want to live a life that’s as deep and meaningful as it is long. It’s not just about filling your head with knowledge. It’s having the curiosity to figure out what is valuable to you and how can you be a value in the world. How do you cultivate and harvest your wisdom and repurpose it in new ways?

We like to call this same seed, different soil. You have a seed inside of you but the question is, “How do you go out?” Let’s use examples rather than being abstract. My seed was my company. I became one of the better-known hospitality executives in the US as a boutique hotelier. I sold that company. I still had that seed. I thought my seed was exclusively knowing the hospitality business and travel. What I didn’t realize is that seed was wisdom around leadership and entrepreneurship. When I was asked to go to Airbnb, they thought they wanted me for my hospitality knowledge but Brian Chesky has said to me many times, “What we’ve got was not just my hospitality knowledge, we’ve got your leadership and entrepreneurship wisdom.” That’s the same seed, different soil. How do we help people at 45, 55, 65, maybe even 75 take that wisdom, that seed and make it relevant to other people out there in the world?

What you are offering and the success stories that I have seen from being on your email list and watching you on social media is using one of the genres of storytelling that I love, which is this rebirth. It’s a Wonderful Life is an example of a movie that rebirth. Even Prudential at one point had a campaign about your retirement is not a continuation of middle age, it’s your third act. It’s time for a rebirth. That concept, as you said, there’s no transition. Otherwise, it feels like, “I’m in middle age, going to feel and do the same things I have been doing since I’m 40 now that I’m 62.”

That is so helpful to give people, as you said, these same seeds, different soil. For myself, I have looked at it from a standpoint of I have a sales career. I was successful at Condé Nast and other companies. You are like, “What else?” I have given a TEDx Talk. Larry King interviewed me. Now, I have different things to help people with, not just help them win new business. A lot of people have a dream of giving a TEDx Talk.

[bctt tweet=”Midlife has a branding problem.” username=”John_Livesay”]

A lot of people would love to be interviewed by the press. A brand is all storytelling. What story do you tell the press? What story do you tell in a TEDx Talk? It’s a very different story than you speak to an audience of salespeople. Uncovering different parts of our skillsets, in your case, you are like, “I know hospitality.” No, you also know leadership and entrepreneurship. These are things that, especially young people, need and value. You have completely given people a reframing instead of feeling awkward or embarrassed that they are older. You should want this.

There are a couple of thoughts here. Do you know that 40% of Americans have a boss that’s younger than them? If you are 55 years old, 70% of 55 years old have a boss younger than them. By the year 2025, the US Department of Labor predicts that the majority of Americans will have a younger boss. What does that mean? We have never had this. This is a new phenomenon. We never had it before. It’s partly because people are living longer. Sometimes when they get older, they say, “I want to work part-time.” They can’t be the boss anymore. It’s also because of digital intelligence, DQ is more important.

Brian Chesky, CEO of Airbnb and I had a trade relationship. I offered him EQ. He offered me DQ. I was able to offer him some emotional intelligence. When I joined Airbnb, I was 52. Brian was 31. He was my boss. I was his mentor. That’s an unusual situation. What’s beautiful about it is that we had something to teach each other. Here’s your mentorship. Here we have these young digital leaders creating companies that are becoming billion-dollar companies almost overnight and yet they need to microwave their emotional intelligence and leadership skills because they have never been in this situation.

How do we create an alliance between younger and older? These are leaders such that we can be there to support them and help them be better leaders. I’m proud of Brian. I have been working with him for many years. He’s now a public company CEO, Airbnb. Airbnb’s value is worth more than Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt Intercontinental and Wyndham combined, whether it should be worth that to be determined, the fact is what it’s worth. This is a company that has grown to that point. Here’s a guy who went to design school at the Rhode Island School of Design, had no business background at all, and is now leading that company as a public company. Good for him. I’m proud. He’s like my son.

What you are describing, in my opinion, is the EQ that you brought to the table gave him a frame of reference that he didn’t have because he was either too young or it wasn’t part of his skillset yet. Without that frame of reference, you are almost, as a mentor, a Sherpa. “I would climb this mountain before. This is the path we want to avoid. You will get frustrated spinning your wheels here. You need to have this philosophy about hiring and firing people because you will hold on to somebody too long.” It’s not producing whatever the skills that you have been through. You could go, “I don’t have to reinvent every wheel myself. You have been up this mountain before. You can save me so much time.” I love that.

The other thing that I find so fascinating about you is, we both have been interviewed by Ageist Magazine, which you have to be over a certain age and be comfortable with what your age. We are also both openly gay men. I find that everyone has a journey. I think to myself on that journey, two years apart in age, me being 62, the premise of coming out, whenever you do that is one thing. You go, “I’m so much freer than I have this ‘secret.’” Back in the early ’80s, that was not as comfortable to be in the Corporate America world as it is now.

 

Now, a lot of people feel like they have to keep their age a secret. I thought to myself, “No, you need to come out about your age as well and own that.” Otherwise, you are walking around with another secret. There are few people that I can have this conversation with. Even if you don’t happen to have the coming out of sexuality issue. Many people will be reading this and they are going to be talking about it in terms of whatever age. I feel old over the 35 already. I wanted to bring that up as a topic for you. Even myself, I had to go, “If someone doesn’t want to hire me as a speaker because I’m this age and I’m openly gay, then that’s fine but I’m not going to pretend to be somebody I’m not to get a job.”

I want you to write a wisdom or blog post from a guest post for me on that subject. It’s a great idea. Let’s start by saying, “Whenever anyone has to water down or dilute who they are to accommodate the majority, especially the dominant power or forces, we have a risk of losing some diversity and even some creativity.” This is what I said to the world. We need to have an annual Be the Other Day, BTO because everybody needs to learn what is it like to be in a non-dominant power. It helps people to understand, “I can walk a mile in your shoes.”

I understand if you are a woman in a male-dominant place, an LGBTQ person in a place that’s predominantly heterosexual, a person of color in a place that’s predominantly white, as you said, a person who’s older in a predominantly younger workplace or vice versa. The younger person who feels like they have to almost act like they are five years older than they are, the thing that we need to help people with is the idea that having those diverse voices, there’s so much evidence that diversity on teams on average is better as opposed to worse.

If you are a diverse person on the team but you feel like you have to act like a man, it’s because you are a woman, a white person because you are a black person, a straight person because you are gay, a young person talking as if you rap, that’s 62 years old. That process, if it’s not genuine, if it’s coming from a place of muting who you are, it’s not good for the organization and certainly not good for yourself. I love the idea of coming out with one’s age. It is a very much topic we converse about here at the Modern Elder Academy and especially in our MEA Online class, which is on the website. We definitely go into that topic a lot.

There are six different kinds of ways to engage with the community. One, you mentioned, you don’t even have to go down to Baja. You can connect with the community online. You have these wonderful two weeks or longer sabbaticals. Let’s hear what that’s like.

Sabbatical Sessions was a pandemic project because we had to close down on March 15, 2020, pandemic came along. Six and a half months later, we reopened with what we called Sabbatical Sessions. It’s people coming for extended stays. We have had people come for as long as three months. At a minimum of two weeks, the intent is to give people the space to reflect. The programming we have is much less intense. It’s a little bit each day and it’s all optional. It’s three spectaculars, healthy and delicious meals a day. We are on the beach. We used our campus for a different use, instead of our very intensive, emotionally, physically, intimate workshops, which didn’t feel quite right during COVID. It’s been really popular. There are a lot of people who come for two weeks and say, “I’m staying for 4, 6, 8, then 10.” They keep extending. I hope they don’t have a pet dog at home.

[bctt tweet=”Regeneration, not retirement.” username=”John_Livesay”]

You mentioned that the workshops can be somewhat intense. Who are the workshops for and how would somebody know if that’s something they need?

What we often say is that our purpose as an organization is to help people to navigate midlife transitions. Let’s face it. There are all kinds of transitions that happen in their life. They were not careered once. You have a career or a job transition. You can lose your parents. If you have kids, you can become an empty nester. You could be in the sandwich generation, taking care of your parents and your kids at the same time. You could go through menopause or men go through something called andropause. You could have a divorce or the end of a long-term relationship. There are a lot of things that happen in this period.

A person who is well suited to come to MEA or do the MEA Online course is probably somebody who’s in the midst of transition. A lot of people, with the pandemic, are in the midst of transition. Our workshops here in Baja are based upon the premise that, “You come for a week. There’s a core curriculum that’s 75% of the program of the week. You are in a group of 18 to 20 people. The other 25% is whatever the theme of the week is with the guest faculty member.” The theme could be money, dating and relationships, purpose and legacy, and mindfulness. There are a lot of different kinds of workshops we have, average ages 54. A large percentage of our people here in our Baja campus are on some form of scholarship we give them, which is great. We have a diverse collection of people. Over 60% are women. We want more men. Men have a hard time being vulnerable. A lot of men, not everybody, that’s the program. Now we have bought a ranch, 2,600 acres just outside of Santa Fe. We are working on that campus. Hopefully, we will have a campus in Santa Fe as well.

I know for myself when my dad died years ago and I was still in the throes of working in Corporate America, how intense that was. You had your own health challenges. A lot of us haven’t had that health challenge but when a parent dies, that is a huge wake-up call. I would think a lot of people could use some transition of a wake-up call for your mortality when a parent dies.

Death is one of the things we don’t talk a lot about in our culture and yet it is so inevitable, just like taxes. Helping people to make sense of it, we even have a workshop with Michael Hebb. We started an organization called Death Over Dinner, which is how to have dinner conversations around the subject of aging and death. This guy is in his mid-40s. We are in our late 40s. It’s about around 45 or 50 where people start to think about a little bit more for themselves because of their parents, partly because their own body starts to run down in certain ways. It’s a very important subject. It’s also something you don’t want to be paralleled in Harold and Maude who gets a little obsessed about it. Death is a beautiful organizing principle for life. It helps you to understand how you want to live your own life but it is not the purpose of life. The purpose in life is not dying like the purpose of running a marathon. It isn’t necessarily hitting the finish line. It is having the sense of accomplishment of running 26.2 miles, the enjoyment, and hopefully, the endorphin high along the way.

When I interviewed Alison Levine, the first woman to ever climb Mount Everest, she said, “It’s just ice and rocks gang at the top. That’s not what it’s about.” You think you are going to get there to have some amazing epiphany. The other thing that I’m so impressed with is when someone goes to the Modern Elder Academy, they have the opportunity to be part of this alumni membership. Even if they were not there when some other people who had been there before them might have some wisdom to share, you suddenly are tapping into not just the people you are interacting with when you are there but the entire legacy of all that collective wisdom. It must be an amazing value for people.

When we were doing the beta program three years ago in the first half of 2018 here in Baja, we are trying out MEA to see if people like the idea of the one-week workshops. We used that two-week workshop then. We found that one week was better. The number one thing we heard from our beta participants was, “Where’s your alumni program?” That was a good sign. If the number one question is the alumni program that says, “Whatever we were doing, was working.”

We now have 1,250 alumni from 25 countries who are part of the alumni program. We have twenty regional chapters around the world. The most active one is in Australia and New Zealand. It’s a great collection of people. There are three ways you become an alumnus. You come down to do a workshop here in Baja. We are reopening for workshops until Thanksgiving, do Sabbatical Sessions in the meantime or you do MEA Online, which is the easiest way to become an alum because you do it from home. It’s the most affordable. It’s an eight-week course. That is easy to accomplish and very connected. Most online learning courses are boring and nobody finishes it. We call it digital intimacy. How do we help? You are in a cohort of six people and you feel a sense of digital intimacy by feeling the sense of connection with your small group and your cohort.

You just dropped a really another great value bomb there. I want to underline it for readers, which is when your customers, clients, whatever you want to call them, tell you what they are looking for, that’s your social proof that you should create something. Listen to what people are saying they want or need and would be willing to see value in or pay for. I wanted to underline that. The last thing I want to ask you about is this wonderful pillar of regeneration. You hinted at it in terms of form, soil, seed and putting the same seed in different soil. For their soil, there’s a soul, community and locale. Would you mind touching briefly on that? How can people get a sense of how that would be another compelling reason to integrate that? If one of those is missing, it’s like a stool without enough legs, I’m guessing.

Here’s the idea. In some ways, we are disrupting two industries. Having been a disrupter twice before, I can promise, you become an entrepreneur to be a disruptor. You create something that starts to disrupt. There are two things we are disrupting with MEA. One is higher education. Why are we disrupting or what? How are we disrupting higher education? Clay Christensen, the famous thinker who was unfortunately passed away, said years ago, “Half of the American colleges and universities will go out of business in the next years.”

That was even pre-COVID. COVID has made it even harder more than go out of business. We are disrupting higher education by bringing college professors and academics to the area of long-life learning and midlife learning. What if some of these college campuses that are going to go out of business became a midlife wisdom school? What if alumni can no longer give enough money for a particular campus? It’s gorgeous. It has been around for 120 years. What if that university says, “We are changing our model.”

Instead of dealing with people 25 and younger, we are now in midlife wisdom school. You can get a one-year certificate and you do a gap year. That’s one thing. Secondly, the other thing we have noticed and listened to, is people said, “I love coming to MEA. I want to live this lifestyle year-round, not just one week a year when I come to visit you.” That’s when we started to think, “Let’s create a residential community.” Instead of it being a residential community, we decided for it to be a Regenerative Community, not a retirement community.

[bctt tweet=”Stop procrastinating and stop optimizing for some perfect time because often, the perfect time is now.” username=”John_Livesay”]

What is the Regenerative Community? It has a regenerative farm. It’s better than a sustainable organic farm because it enriches the soil. It does what’s called carbon sequestration, which is good for the climate and has better crops. It’s not monocropping. Instead of a fairway in the center, like in a retirement community, there’s a farm in the center. We have an academy. People come here to learn. If you are in this community and you are buying a home around the farm, you also have a school there. While you may not go to workshops every week, of course, you are not going to do that, there are some collateral benefits to being where the school is.

There’s a famous speaker, Brené Brown is coming to town. She’s going to be giving a workshop for a week, David Brooks, or Paul Hauck. You can sit in on a public lecture that this person is going to do. Plus, other programs as well. Soil is the farm, the soul is the sense of regeneration people have. Community is our broader MEA community, living in an intentional community with a bunch of homes and people who all have similar interests. Locale is wherever we go to do this, we want to be a net positive benefit to the community.

A lot of times, if you think about retirement communities now, they have walled off their gated communities. Everybody there is 65 plus, and often 80 plus. There’s no sense of connection. This is not true of all of them but it’s true for most of them. They are not very connected to the community other than occasionally getting people on a bus and taking them to the shopping mall so they can go shop. Why aren’t there mentorship programs? Why isn’t there a co-working space intergenerationally in the retirement community so that old entrepreneurs and young entrepreneurs can be side by side and learn from each other? Aren’t other volunteers providing service from that retirement community in the broader community? In essence, we are creating a regenerative community. We will be disrupting the retirement community and senior living space. We are disrupting two things at once. Both of them, which is quite frankly ready to be disrupted.

As you are building this regenerative garden, that is a metaphor for people doing the same thing for their body and their mind. Also, the awareness of nature has cycles and seasons, not to resist one coming in the next. There are a lot there I’m sure quite wonderful. Any last thought or a quote from your book that you want to leave us with?

Here are a couple of thoughts. Let me define the word elder. In Modern Elder, they are curious as they are wise. An elder is different from than elderly. Elderly is the last 5 or 10 years of your life. Elder is a relative term. It speaks to who you are surrounded by. If you are an advertising agency and you are 42, you might be an elder. Similarly, if you are a software engineer and you are 40, you might be an elder around a bunch of people who have just joined MIT and know a whole new tech language.

The elder of the past, they were respected because they were perceived as being reverent. There was a revering the elders. You revered your elders. Now is not about reverence, it’s about relevance. The modern elder is not about being reverent to the modern elder, it’s about the modern elder being relevant. That’s why the curiosity piece is so essential. If you are not long-life learning, if you are not constantly learning something new, it’s hard to know how to take that wisdom you have and put it in the context of a bunch of people who don’t understand what you are saying because you don’t understand the tech business as I did. I joined a tech company at age 52, had never been in a tech company. That’s why my curiosity around tech was essential. Otherwise, I would be just passing out wisdom. I was talking about how many rooms a maid cleans in eight hours? That’s relevant to the hospitality industry of hotels but not Airbnb.

If people want to explore being part of that wonderful community, follow you, you have your own website, which is your name, ChipConley.com. Wisdom at Work is the book. Any other ways that you want people to follow you on social media or join your email list?

WisdomWell is one of the better ways. It’s a daily subscriber opportunity that is free. My LinkedIn profile is where we post almost all of those articles so you can stay at it. Keep an eye on it there too.

Chip, thanks for sharing your wisdom, not just at work but in your own life. It has been a joy to interview you.

Thank you, John. I appreciate it. I appreciate what you are doing in the world. You’ve got a great message.

Thanks.

 

Important Links

• Modern Elder Academy
• WisdomWell
• LinkedIn – Chip Conley
• Wisdom at Work
• Chip Conley
• PEAK: How Great Companies Get their Mojo from Maslow
• Alison Levine – Past episode
• Airbnb
• MEA Online
• Sabbatical Sessions
• Death Over Dinner
• Regenerative Community
• https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/im-coming-out-john-livesay/
• Better Selling Through Storytelling Method Online Course

 

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Tags: becoming better leaders, Digital Intelligence, diversity in teams, Long Life Learning, Midlife crisis, Modern Elder, Sabbatical Sessions